Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 49

Thread: M269* (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269xL23)

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,407
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    M269* (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269xL23)

    I've looked for all of the M269+ L23- folks I could find in the DNA projects.

    M269* is a bit of a challenge. I would like to see more people do deeper testing but I was able to pull together a number of haplotypes.

    At least among our DNA projects, there is a heavy Jewish project focus along with Italy and folks from the Near East.

    I think almost all of M269*, as we know it, or at least as I've found it, is a single subclade that is no older than P312. That's what the 67 marker comparisons would tell you, regardless of geography. I should just say it is probably about the same age.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     AJL (10-16-2013),  Joe B (10-15-2013)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,874
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I suppose the main interest in it is that it shows an M269 line that didnt derive from L23. That is still interesting in itself even if the modern clade is not old. By definition it has branched off the future L23 line after M269 and before L23 which according to some calculations would place its branching off between 4000 and 3500BC. If its variance is only c. 2500BC. It clearly has a long hidden history perhaps some 1000-1500 years long which has not been preserved in the modern variance presumably because they are all descended from a more recent common ancestor on that line. If it was very localised I would think it was just a case that interclades can fail to identify true age. However if it is widespread but still young then that creates a different picture that indicates the most recent common ancestor and spread itself is young.

    I think its is worth thinking this lineage through a little more using the common central dates of SNPs and modern variance. What you have in this clade is evidence that M269 did very little on one line until L23 c. 3500BC and that another branching off at some point c. 4000-3500BC did very little for another 1000-1500 years and struggled to survive judging from the M269* clade variance being similar to P312. So the ancestor of the M269* group shared the lack of expansion with the L23 group but this actually extended for an extra 1000 years.

    So, the first conclusion is that M269 itself is not the start of much other than producing the modern M269* line and the L23 lines. Not much happened in the M269 world at all until L23 happened and not much happened on the other M269 line until say 2500BC - bare survival. I think the obvious conclusion is that these were not expansive lines in advanced farming areas. They must have been at the margins of survival and the M269* line seems to have stayed at that stage of bare survival until c. 2500BC. So, context-wise we are really talking about one man c. 2500BC being the ancestor of all M269* today. As with all R1b downstream of P297, we must be looking at margin context.

    It is a reasonable assumption that the two M269 lines, future L23 and future modern M269* spend some time in the same zone as they both shared the same barren spell for many centuries. So, although imperfect, I would think this struggling M269 line's position is probably best inferred from the L23xL51 clades. That does give a basic generalised best-guess location in the circum-Pontic/Caspian zone in its first 500 years or so anyway.

    What then marks it out as different from L23 is a more protracted period in the doldrums, perhaps an additional 1000 years in that state. That suggests to me that while L23 found more fruitful pastures new, M269 may have remained in the less fruitful original M269 context (be that geographical/cultural/environmental/mode of existence) or a comparable one anyway. It seems to have missed the boat that L23 took somehow. I find the Balkans c. 4000-3000BC as the most likely place L23 found its prosperity. I have outline my reasons before for thinking that Anatolia has a later multiple input history of L23/Balkans groups. I cannot be sure of that but there is some sound reasons for thinking that given the many IE groups who many think spread into Anatolia from the Balkans be it Anatolians, Aremenias, Greeks etc.

    Actually finding a story for perhaps just one man c. 2500BC (lets say 3000-2000BC) who somehow missed out on the expansion that L23 was able to do is virtually impossible. If I had to guess I would suggest a Balkans or Caucasus entry into Anatolia (there is some M269* in the Balkans and Armenia) in a non-elite context c. 3000-2000BC. The most obvious cultural network linking areas like the Caucasus and Anatolia to the Levant etc in that timeframe was Kura-Araxes. However, I think that culture has links to V88 and the very distant M269xL23 man would likely have been an outsider from a neighbouring culture, perhaps Maykop or from the Balkan-Anatolian IE groups. I doubt we are talking about a poweful high status lineage given its rarity.

    Even leaving aside the archaeological side of things, M269* is known in Ararat Armenians. One could look at this geographically and say that could trace it back to a previous home or stepping stone in the Caucasus, Or one could look at the Armenians as an ethnic group and suggest a possible link with the Balkans where some M269* is also known. Either way, the Kura-Araxes culture linked from NW Iran through the south Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and down the Levant so its very good scenario for a small M269 line to end up scattered around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I've looked for all of the M269+ L23- folks I could find in the DNA projects.

    M269* is a bit of a challenge. I would like to see more people do deeper testing but I was able to pull together a number of haplotypes.

    At least among our DNA projects, there is a heavy Jewish project focus along with Italy and folks from the Near East.

    I think almost all of M269*, as we know it, or at least as I've found it, is a single subclade that is no older than P312. That's what the 67 marker comparisons would tell you, regardless of geography. I should just say it is probably about the same age.

  4. #3
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,718
    Sex

    I wonder whether kit 277815 is M269+ L23- . He has 11 at DYS426, and 5 at DYS450.
    Code:
    277815	Dimitry Laban, 1822 - 1898	Ukraine	R1b1a2
    12	24	14	11	11-14	11	12	13	13	13	29
    16	9-11	11	11	25	15	19	30	15-16-17-17
    10	10	19-23	15	15	18	17	36-37	12	12
    11	9	15-16	8	10	10	8	10	10
    12	22-23	16	10	12	12	15	5	13	22	20	13
    12	11	15	11	11	12	12

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lgmayka For This Useful Post:

     AJL (10-16-2013),  TigerMW (10-18-2013)

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,407
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    I wonder whether kit 277815 is M269+ L23- . He has 11 at DYS426, and 5 at DYS450.
    Code:
    277815	Dimitry Laban, 1822 - 1898	Ukraine	R1b1a2
    I found him in the Russian project so I copied him in. I'm pretty sure he is M269+ L23- but he's kind of an outlier. I wouldn't make too much of the 450=5 even though that is slow. It looks like a single mutation event with a jump in the allele.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     AJL (10-16-2013)

  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I found him in the Russian project so I copied him in. I'm pretty sure he is M269+ L23- but he's kind of an outlier. I wouldn't make too much of the 450=5 even though that is slow. It looks like a single mutation event with a jump in the allele.
    I completely agree with Mikewww. This is a R-M269 in line with all the others, apart this multistep mutation. I'd be curious about his origin, because Laban (white in Hebrew) could be of Jewish origin and this could be interesting.

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    I completely agree with Mikewww. This is a R-M269 in line with all the others, apart this multistep mutation. I'd be curious about his origin, because Laban (white in Hebrew) could be of Jewish origin and this could be interesting.
    That this recent line of R-M269* Alan spoke about could be Jewish in its origin should be taken in consideration. Till there was the only cluster of the Ht35 FTDNA Project clearly it was an introgression, but now this Laban, the Russian Guralsky, a Lebanese (Jlelati) I found on SMGF and put on ysearch with YCAII=17-23, this guy posted recently by Humanist, those Italians above all from Calabria (but Ferrero came from Piemonte, but also Prowting/Micieli probably was named Ferrero (Smith)), this Haddad (Smith) labelled R-M269 but with the markers values of R-V88+, the same Tuscan Mangino/Mancini etc.
    But LoPIccolo (from Sicily) and Filandro are autosomally pretty 100% Italian like me (from Tuscany)...
    I think I'll use this offer of Geno 2.0 at 149$ to test my acquired cousin, Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany, Pisa province, an R-M269 I tested with SMGF. Finally we'll have another R-M269 to test for these three Sardinian SNPs.
    Last edited by Rathna; 10-16-2013 at 04:09 AM.

  10. #7
    And if this haplogroup were linked to the diffusion of the Iron technology after the fall of the Hittite Empire?

  11. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,874
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    There are so many possible scenarios for a lineage descending from on guy c. 3000-2000BC. I agree the possibly link with metal working is very tempting. However, I would be tempted to link this with the taking over of the copper metallurgical routes from the south Caucasus/NW Iran through east Anatolia and down the Levant that we see in the Kura-Araxes culture. They had a big role in the copper networks of those areas from 3500-2000BC. I think they were mostly V88 but M269* was also nearby in the Caucasus and the Balkans. The area of Maykop and the Kura-Araxes areas overlapped around NW Iran c. 3000BC when the latter took over dominance of that area from the former. A Balkans route is also possible as there is some M269* there and many see the Armenians, Hittites etc as deriving from there. Whatever, it was was a minor line that seems to have only taken off very late and got incorporated into Jewish populations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    And if this haplogroup were linked to the diffusion of the Iron technology after the fall of the Hittite Empire?

  12. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,289
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA (M)
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    it was was a minor line that seems to have only taken off very late and got incorporated into Jewish populations.
    You should be aware that while there is considerable haplogroup diversity in Jewish populations there is similarly low haplotype/STR diversity in all these because of both founder effect and bottleneck. Unless you have a second relatively stable cluster to compare a Jewish STR cluster to, it is very hard to determine with any authority when the haplogroup was incorporated into the population -- it is fallacious to assume that date of incorporation is the same as TMRCA.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  13. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,778
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b S21184, BY50830+
    mtDNA (M)
    U4b1a2 - FGS
    Y-DNA (M)
    ?
    mtDNA (P)
    I2

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    That this recent line of R-M269* Alan spoke about could be Jewish in its origin should be taken in consideration. Till there was the only cluster of the Ht35 FTDNA Project clearly it was an introgression, but now this Laban, the Russian Guralsky, a Lebanese (Jlelati) I found on SMGF and put on ysearch with YCAII=17-23, this guy posted recently by Humanist, those Italians above all from Calabria (but Ferrero came from Piemonte, but also Prowting/Micieli probably was named Ferrero (Smith)), this Haddad (Smith) labelled R-M269 but with the markers values of R-V88+, the same Tuscan Mangino/Mancini etc.
    But LoPIccolo (from Sicily) and Filandro are autosomally pretty 100% Italian like me (from Tuscany)...
    I think I'll use this offer of Geno 2.0 at 149$ to test my acquired cousin, Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany, Pisa province, an R-M269 I tested with SMGF. Finally we'll have another R-M269 to test for these three Sardinian SNPs.
    LoPiccolo appears 99.8% Italian because he was used as a reference sample, no other reason.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 53
    Last Post: 08-08-2015, 04:04 AM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-27-2015, 12:10 PM
  3. Z2103 (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103) & Z2105
    By TigerMW in forum R1b-Z2103/Z2105
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-25-2015, 04:13 AM
  4. Dating of M73 and P297
    By alan in forum R1b-M73
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-03-2014, 01:51 PM
  5. P25xM269xM73xV88 - has it been tested for P297
    By alan in forum R1b Early Subclades
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-24-2013, 12:38 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •