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Thread: Is Haplogroup R2 West Eurasian?

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    Is Haplogroup R2 West Eurasian?

    Haplogroup R2 (one of the most common haplogroups in India) is in the same family as R1a. But it diverged from R1a a long time ago. It's very rare outside South Asia and it peaks in Sinhalese Sri Lankans and South Indians. Did this haplogroup come due to West Eurasian migrants or was it indigenous to India (Ancestral South Indians)?

  2. #2
    I think, that it is possible, that R2 is the same IE as R1.
    There are very good reasons for that. Especially after
    discovering the Maltaboy, it is almost certain. And btw,
    there is no place for R2 in India without IEs. Dravidians
    are H, Indus Valley L, some Monkhmers O, and some
    old austroveddo-migrants C. Who would be R2? Noone.

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    The existence of R2 outside of South Asia may not be common, but it's definitely not rare.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup R2 has been found most so far in aDNA from the neolithic sites from Iran where they collected aDNA- Ganj Dareh for example. I think it should have its ultimate origins somewhere in Central Asia (ANE or ANE-like population) of course, but it seems that it got into Iran and perhaps also India quite early and not solely with the Indo-Aryan migrations. Such scheduled tribe groups as Irula in the deep south, Karmali of West Bengal (apparently at 100% frequency) have significant amounts of it, along with middle and upper caste groups located in more eastern parts of India, like Kapus, Kammas, Janpur Kshatriyas, Sinhalese people as you noted who might themselves have some significant numbers of descendants of migrants from more eastern parts of India (there is also a possibility Sinhala language may originate from more eastern Prakrits rather than western Prakrits), etc. While it appears R2 might have been present in Iran at least since some point in the mesolithic, in the case of India it is not very clear- if, as some say, there were linkages between ancient Central Asian hunter gatherers and ancient South Asian hunter gatherers, then R2 is a good candidate (perhaps along with some other haplogroups like some types of subclades of C) for being a part of this interaction in my opinion. But significant levels of R2 may also have come during later northwestern neolithic, mediated by pastoralist and farmer males from Iran, to first the northwest and then to inner India, where for some reason, it ended up getting heavily concentrated on the eastern side (or it appears to me so). Some R2 may have come with the Indo-Aryan migrations also, if the Indo-Aryans picked up some BMAC Iran_N-like descendants on their way. What I wrote above is rather standard fare. You should also find all kinds of discussions about R2 done already, perhaps to almost the full extent possible, in the R2 forum on this site.

    I have gone through the Y-DNA haplogroup information from the recent Narasimhan et al. Central Asia aDNA pre-print and these were the R2 individuals from that paper:

    From South Asia:

    1. I8245- Aligrama_IA, Swat valley, 970-550 BCE: R2a3a2b2b1. The two other males from Aligrama belonged to G2a2a and L1a.
    2. I5399- Katelai_IA, Swat valley, 1000-800 BCE: R2a3a. The one other male from Katelai belonged to J2a1.
    3. S8997.E1.L1- Loebanr_IA, Swat valley, 900-800 BCE: R2a. The other males from Loebanr were L1a (4 in number), C1b1a1a1, Q1b2 and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.
    4. S7722.E1.L1- Saidu_Sharif_IA_o, Swat valley, 500-300 BCE: R2a3a2b. The other males from Saidu Sharif were L1a, Q1b2, R1a1a1b, and an A apparently.

    From Central Asia:

    1, 2. I7419 and I7492- Sappali_Tepe_BA (BMAC), Uzbekistan, 1881-1701 calBCE: R2a. The other males from Sappali Tepe were G2a2a, J2a, J2a1, L1a, Q1b2.
    3. I6675- Sumbar_LBA, Turkmenistan, 1600-1000 BCE: R2a. This guy was the only person from Sumbar.
    4. I4087- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a. An ancient man.
    5. I4085- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a3a. These two were the only guys from the Tepe Anau site.

    Now, I don't know if the following are new samples (the spreadsheet says "This study" under "Study in which DNA was published" column) in the Narasimhan et al. paper but there were also samples I1947, I1954, I1946 and I1952 from Ganj Dareh in Iran dated to 8210-7845 calBCE, 8330-8255 calBCE, 8250-7850 BCE and 8219-7761 calBCE respectively. I1946 was apparently the father of I1947 and I1952. There was also one I1945 from Ganj Dareh (samples first published in Lazaridis et al. 2016 apparently) who was R2a (8000-7700 BCE), and an R1 guy was also apparently found there (8241-7962 calBCE).
    Last edited by anthroin; 06-25-2018 at 04:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy View Post
    Haplogroup R2 (one of the most common haplogroups in India) is in the same family as R1a. But it diverged from R1a a long time ago. It's very rare outside South Asia and it peaks in Sinhalese Sri Lankans and South Indians. Did this haplogroup come due to West Eurasian migrants or was it indigenous to India (Ancestral South Indians)?
    Neolithic Iran probably via ANE component in Iran_N

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    Y-DNA haplogroup R2 has been found most so far in aDNA from the neolithic sites from Iran where they collected aDNA- Ganj Dareh for example. I think it should have its ultimate origins somewhere in Central Asia (ANE or ANE-like population) of course, but it seems that it got into Iran and perhaps also India quite early and not solely with the Indo-Aryan migrations. Such scheduled tribe groups as Irula in the deep south, Karmali of West Bengal (apparently at 100% frequency) have significant amounts of it, along with middle and upper caste groups located in more eastern parts of India, like Kapus, Kammas, Janpur Kshatriyas, Sinhalese people as you noted who might themselves have some significant numbers of descendants of migrants from more eastern parts of India (there is also a possibility Sinhala language may originate from more eastern Prakrits rather than western Prakrits), etc. While it appears R2 might have been present in Iran at least since some point in the mesolithic, in the case of India it is not very clear- if, as some say, there were linkages between ancient Central Asian hunter gatherers and ancient South Asian hunter gatherers, then R2 is a good candidate (perhaps along with some other haplogroups like some types of subclades of C) for being a part of this interaction in my opinion. But significant levels of R2 may also have come during later northwestern neolithic, mediated by pastoralist and farmer males from Iran, to first the northwest and then to inner India, where for some reason, it ended up getting heavily concentrated on the eastern side (or it appears to me so). Some R2 may have come with the Indo-Aryan migrations also, if the Indo-Aryans picked up some BMAC Iran_N-like descendants on their way. What I wrote above is rather standard fare. You should also find all kinds of discussions about R2 done already, perhaps to almost the full extent possible, in the R2 forum on this site.

    I have gone through the Y-DNA haplogroup information from the recent Narasimhan et al. Central Asia aDNA pre-print and these were the R2 individuals from that paper:

    From South Asia:

    1. I8245- Aligrama_IA, Swat valley, 970-550 BCE: R2a3a2b2b1. The two other males from Aligrama belonged to G2a2a and L1a.
    2. I5399- Katelai_IA, Swat valley, 1000-800 BCE: R2a3a. The one other male from Katelai belonged to J2a1.
    3. S8997.E1.L1- Loebanr_IA, Swat valley, 900-800 BCE: R2a. The other males from Loebanr were L1a (4 in number), C1b1a1a1, Q1b2 and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.
    4. S7722.E1.L1- Saidu_Sharif_IA_o, Swat valley, 500-300 BCE: R2a3a2b. The other males from Saidu Sharif were L1a, Q1b2, R1a1a1b, and an A apparently.

    From Central Asia:

    1, 2. I7419 and I7492- Sappali_Tepe_BA (BMAC), Uzbekistan, 1881-1701 calBCE: R2a. The other males from Sappali Tepe were G2a2a, J2a, J2a1, L1a, Q1b2.
    3. I6675- Sumbar_LBA, Turkmenistan, 1600-1000 BCE: R2a. This guy was the only person from Sumbar.
    4. I4087- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a. An ancient man.
    5. I4085- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a3a. These two were the only guys from the Tepe Anau site.

    Now, I don't know if the following are new samples (the spreadsheet says "This study" under "Study in which DNA was published" column) in the Narasimhan et al. paper but there were also samples I1947, I1954, I1946 and I1952 from Ganj Dareh in Iran dated to 8210-7845 calBCE, 8330-8255 calBCE, 8250-7850 BCE and 8219-7761 calBCE respectively. I1946 was apparently the father of I1947 and I1952. There was also one I1945 from Ganj Dareh (samples first published in Lazaridis et al. 2016 apparently) who was R2a (8000-7700 BCE), and an R1 guy was also apparently found there (8241-7962 calBCE).
    Yes I agree, R2 follows an interesting distribution with a high prevalence in Bengal and South India.

    It perhaps was subdued elsewhere by later waves of South Caucasus package J2/L/G2a and then Central Asian Steppe R1a/Q

    It most certainly has nothing to do with AASI hunter-gatherers (<1% in the Hill tribe foragers where AASI peaks)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Yes I agree, R2 follows an interesting distribution with a high prevalence in Bengal and South India.

    It perhaps was subdued elsewhere by later waves of South Caucasus package J2/L/G2a and then Central Asian Steppe R1a/Q

    It most certainly has nothing to do with AASI hunter-gatherers (<1% in the Hill tribe foragers where AASI peaks)
    It seems to be quite a peculiar distribution, I agree, with L on the western side after northwest (J2 also similar?), R2 on the eastern side (but also apparently has a two-pronged northwest-southeast(&northeast?) split in terms of the Indian subclades of R2; I have to check the forums again thoroughly), with what in the middle? H and R1a?

    But that said, what evidence is there currently to suggest that R2 may have been pushed over to that side by the later Js, Ls, etc.? These all folks are found together in Swat valley and neolithic Central Asia, right? Also, if I remember correctly, G2s and J2s were also found in remote neolithic Iran along with R2. Also, early neolithic Central Asia and India even now are said to be bastions of neolithic Iran-like ancestry. If migrations of Ls, Js, G2s, etc. happened to India considerably later from Iran during which time Iran itself was getting very Levant-neolithic influenced genetically, don't we expect more Levant and Anatolia-like ancestry in India?
    Last edited by anthroin; 06-25-2018 at 01:31 PM.

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    This West/South division of Eurasian branch of humanity needs to retire itself when talking of Indian subcontinent population history. The model is relevant as far as explaining European population structure due to the ANE component that came in from bronze age steppe and later arrivals, but in Indian subcontinent such a nodal divide into the Paleolithic timeframe is most likely not there.
    As far as R goes, it looks to me like some counter clockwise movement across Eurasia. You have the F* in Indian subcontinent tribals, you have P* in Philippine pygmies. You get Q going into Siberian and native Americans while R starts heading northwest. Either way as far as dividing autosomal components (for understanding European structure goes) into a West Eurasian node and a South+East node goes, anything R is coming firmly from the South and then East camp, West is grabbing all the undifferentiated GHIJK. If R becomes de facto West by the time it circles back around central Asia/Sintashta back into Indian subcontinent through the northwest in form of R1a, then it is indeed bringing West Eurasian autosomal component but R in its origins is still from the eastern node as far as the division of autosomal components go.
    Either way like I said this nodal difference does not hold for India as far as I'm concerned. Autosomal distinction happens over geographical isolation. If one group of OOA pygmies heads north from Balochistan region and another remains on coastal route until a further subset of coastal route heads north along the Pacific coast of China, the nodal difference will be relevant as far as the two groups that headed north goes. The basal group that is geographically contiguous along the southern tropics does not differentiate. Yes over time recombination of various types with returning varieties from the northern out migrants will change the autosomal makeup of the southern groups in different ways, but for the most part the southern group always mixes with their immediate northern migrant outgroup. Also due to huge distances and sparse populability across entire Eurasian steppe, the genetic changes across the north on an east west axis will be much more swift and vast in scope than anything that percolates back down south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    It seems to be quite a peculiar distribution, I agree, with L on the western side after northwest (J2 also similar?), R2 on the eastern side (but also apparently has a two-pronged northwest-southeast(&northeast?) split in terms of the Indian subclades of R2; I have to check the forums again thoroughly), with what in the middle? H and R1a?

    But that said, what evidence is there currently to suggest that R2 may have been pushed over to that side by the later Js, Ls, etc.? These all folks are found together in Swat valley and neolithic Central Asia, right? Also, if I remember correctly, G2s and J2s were also found in remote neolithic Iran along with R2. Also, early neolithic Central Asia and India even now are said to be bastions of neolithic Iran-like ancestry. If migrations of Ls, Js, G2s, etc. happened to India considerably later from Iran during which time Iran itself was getting very Levant-neolithic influenced genetically, don't we expect more Levant and Anatolia-like ancestry in India?
    No evidence.

    J2/L1/G2/R2a all migrated before significant Levant ancestry arrived in Iran IMO.

    Central India has a mix of haplogroups, but generally tribal hunter-gatherers living in heavily forested regions of the interior would carry higher levels of O, H1a, F and South Asian C

    However J2 and L1 are almost negligible in Eastern India whereas R2 is found at high levels, suggesting different migrations dates to me.

    J2a Iran + Caucasus - The oldest known J2a samples at present were identified in remains from the Hotu Cave in northern Iran, dating from 9100-8600 BCE (Lazaridis et al. 2016), and from Kotias Klde in Georgia, dating from 7940-7600 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)).
    Oldest L1a Areni-1 - I1632 Armenia Copper Age L1a1-M27*
    Oldest R2a - Ganj Dareh - I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls
    Oldest G2a - I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) - I'm not sure if this is the oldest sample found so far
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-25-2018 at 03:14 PM.

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    Also as far as above conjecture, it is only conjecture in theory. There is aDNA backing up the west/south model as far as Europe's population history and structure goes with tons of spatial and temporal resolution. Everything else about rest of Eurasia is fuzzy territory and being drawn out by extensions of what has worked for Europeans. But it is just common sense that it won't.

    As far as R2 goes, I think they percolated back into the subcontinent before they picked up any proper neo West Eurasian autosomal components. Even R1a might have only picked up some semi West/south intermediate components.

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