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Thread: Is Haplogroup R2 West Eurasian?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    Looking at the "R2a-M124 updates" post within the R2-M479 category on this forum, the picture from the first post shows a prominent split in Indian R2a men who are either negative or positive for the L295 SNP. In India, R2a men who are L295+ seem to be far more widespread throughout the Indian subcontinent than those who are L295-, who are pretty much restricted to NW India. Along with the aDNA samples from Pakistan being L295+ while the R2a there now is mainly L295-, would this suggest that R2a (L295+) would be the original R2a present in pre-Harappan times whereas the R2a (L295-) would've been carried by Indo-Aryans alongside R1a? I am a complete novice so please pardon my ignorance



    There have been a lot of newly discovered SNP's in the ISOGG tree under R2a in the last few years. A few years ago the L295 SNP would've come under R2a1 whereas now that SNP comes under R2a2b1b2b
    If the R2a L295- has a purely NW distribution its probably even later than Indo-Aryan migration for example similar to L1a2 which also has a largely NW distribution.

    I say that because Indo-Aryan y-haplogroups like R1a are ubiquitous all over South Asia, NW South Asia is not necessarily its peak in distribution

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    No evidence.

    J2/L1/G2/R2a all migrated before significant Levant ancestry arrived in Iran IMO.

    Central India has a mix of haplogroups, but generally tribal hunter-gatherers living in heavily forested regions of the interior would carry higher levels of O, H1a, F and South Asian C

    However J2 and L1 are almost negligible in Eastern India whereas R2 is found at high levels, suggesting different migrations dates to me.

    J2a Iran + Caucasus - The oldest known J2a samples at present were identified in remains from the Hotu Cave in northern Iran, dating from 9100-8600 BCE (Lazaridis et al. 2016), and from Kotias Klde in Georgia, dating from 7940-7600 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)).
    Oldest L1a Areni-1 - I1632 Armenia Copper Age L1a1-M27*
    Oldest R2a - Ganj Dareh - I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls
    Oldest G2a - I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) - I'm not sure if this is the oldest sample found so far
    HarappaDNA results of some of these samples.

    Notice that Baloch + Caucasian is the common trend among these samples. The Iranian samples also show 'S Indian' showing the S Indian component on Harappa captures some Iran_N, or less likely, these ancient samples had AASI ancestry.

    Among modern populations, the Iranian samples show the most continuity with the Baloch/Brahui/Makrani peoples, which is the 1st or 2nd largest component among modern South Asians depending on region. The Armenian sample differs due to preferring 'Caucasian' more than 'Baloch', and is modelled as half Georgian. It is modelled as half NW Iranian (Kurd) and 1/4 Caucasian (Georgian), with the rest being South European 'Med' type ancestry in its 4 way oracle.

    Oldest J2a - M825671 I1293 Iran Mesolithic [9100-8600 BC] HV2 J2a-M410>CTS1085

    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	Baloch	55.51
    2	Caucasian	20.44
    3	SW-Asian	11.87
    4	S-Indian	6.74
    5	NE-Euro	3.08
    6	W-African	2.05
    
    
    Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
    16 components mode.
    
    --------------------------------
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 makrani_hgdp @ 7.586064
    2 balochi_hgdp @ 10.431101
    3 brahui_hgdp @ 10.788074
    4 kalash_hgdp @ 24.123739
    5 pathan_hgdp @ 25.705009
    6 bhatia_harappa @ 25.761095
    7 pashtun_harappa @ 27.143003
    8 sindhi_harappa @ 27.767408
    9 sindhi_hgdp @ 28.103373
    10 burusho_hgdp @ 28.609911
    11 tajik_yunusbayev @ 30.317488
    12 punjabi-arain_xing @ 30.764109
    13 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 31.242146
    14 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 31.606155
    15 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 32.750099
    16 kashmiri_harappa @ 32.850044
    17 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 34.141022
    18 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 34.197685
    19 iranian_behar @ 34.263100
    20 punjabi_harappa @ 34.354637
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% makrani_hgdp +50% makrani_hgdp @ 7.586064
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% brahui_hgdp +25% brahui_hgdp +25% kurd_xing @ 6.679604
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + kurd_xing @ 6.679604
    Oldest L1a - M417230 I1407 Armenia Chalcolithic [4350-3700 BC] H L1a-M27

    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	Caucasian	45.98
    2	Baloch	20.86
    3	Mediterranean	14.16
    4	NE-Euro	9.78
    5	SW-Asian	8.65
    
    
    Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
    16 components mode.
    
    --------------------------------
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 turk-istanbul_hodoglugil @ 7.857787
    2 turk-kayseri_hodoglugil @ 7.910618
    3 turk_behar @ 8.180408
    4 turkish_harappa @ 8.389827
    5 azeri_harappa @ 9.539835
    6 armenian_harappa @ 10.293874
    7 kurd_yunusbayev @ 11.903107
    8 kurd_harappa @ 12.876994
    9 uzbekistan-jew_behar @ 13.193371
    10 north-ossetian_harappa @ 13.885733
    11 kurd_xing @ 13.898415
    12 iranian_harappa @ 13.908567
    13 armenian_behar @ 14.162494
    14 turk-aydin_hodoglugil @ 14.789682
    15 armenian_yunusbayev @ 14.873545
    16 kumyk_yunusbayev @ 14.985253
    17 assyrian_harappa @ 15.166075
    18 azerbaijan-jew_behar @ 15.760208
    19 iranian_behar @ 16.373919
    20 georgia-jew_behar @ 16.541267
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% cypriot_behar +50% lezgin_behar @ 6.386781
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% georgian_harappa +25% kurd_xing +25% spaniard_1000genomes @ 3.822522
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 georgian_behar + italian_hgdp + kurd_xing + kurd_xing @ 3.039519
    Oldest G2b2 - • WC1 from Wezmeh Cave Iran WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Iran 7455-7082 calBCE (9465-9092 BP) Y-DNA G2b2a-Z8022 mtDNA J1d6

    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	Baloch	54.31
    2	Caucasian	27.23
    3	SW-Asian	7.17
    4	S-Indian	6.88
    5	W-African	2.82
    6	Pygmy	1.05
    
    
    Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
    16 components mode.
    
    --------------------------------
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 makrani_hgdp @ 13.651622
    2 balochi_hgdp @ 15.771654
    3 brahui_hgdp @ 17.164858
    4 kalash_hgdp @ 24.422010
    5 pathan_hgdp @ 27.064075
    6 pashtun_harappa @ 27.527281
    7 bhatia_harappa @ 28.002531
    8 sindhi_harappa @ 29.349966
    9 burusho_hgdp @ 30.274969
    10 sindhi_hgdp @ 30.379475
    11 tajik_yunusbayev @ 30.495108
    12 iranian_behar @ 31.228497
    13 iranian_harappa @ 31.891190
    14 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 32.394630
    15 punjabi-arain_xing @ 32.701027
    16 turkmen_yunusbayev @ 32.772186
    17 kurd_xing @ 33.501423
    18 kashmiri_harappa @ 33.593575
    19 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 33.809807
    20 kurd_harappa @ 33.821217
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% makrani_hgdp +50% makrani_hgdp @ 13.651622
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% brahui_hgdp +25% brahui_hgdp +25% georgian_behar @ 8.317672
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 abhkasian_yunusbayev + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp @ 8.296929
    Ganj Dareh female sample - closest we have on gedmatch to represent old R2a - M249214 GD13A-I1290 Early Neolithic Ganj Dareh Iran 8179-7613 calBCE

    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	Baloch	56.96
    2	Caucasian	24.44
    3	S-Indian	6.59
    4	W-African	5.44
    5	SW-Asian	4.26
    6	Papuan	1.02
    
    
    Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
    16 components mode.
    
    --------------------------------
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 makrani_hgdp @ 12.968754
    2 balochi_hgdp @ 14.985866
    3 brahui_hgdp @ 15.694973
    4 kalash_hgdp @ 24.806332
    5 pathan_hgdp @ 27.543703
    6 bhatia_harappa @ 27.737085
    7 pashtun_harappa @ 29.204081
    8 sindhi_harappa @ 29.871681
    9 sindhi_hgdp @ 29.885387
    10 burusho_hgdp @ 30.206978
    11 tajik_yunusbayev @ 32.113499
    12 punjabi-arain_xing @ 32.419960
    13 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 32.985977
    14 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 33.871624
    15 kashmiri_harappa @ 34.215839
    16 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 34.501972
    17 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 35.466156
    18 iranian_behar @ 35.568474
    19 turkmen_yunusbayev @ 35.777279
    20 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 35.882626
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% makrani_hgdp +50% makrani_hgdp @ 12.968754
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% brahui_hgdp +25% brahui_hgdp +25% georgian_harappa @ 11.798820
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + brahui_hgdp + georgian_harappa @ 11.798820
    Oldest R1a-z94 (the vast majority of South Asian R1a is under this subclade) - M630274 I0432 Poltavka outlier [2925-2536 BC] U5a1c R1a-M417>Z94

    Code:
    Admix Results (sorted):
    
    #	Population	Percent
    1	NE-Euro	63.14
    2	Mediterranean	22.15
    3	Baloch	14.70
    
    
    Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
    16 components mode.
    
    --------------------------------
    
    Least-squares method.
    
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 lithuanian_behar @ 14.272401
    2 orcadian_hgdp @ 14.923343
    3 belorussian_behar @ 15.002377
    4 utahn-white_hapmap @ 15.411245
    5 n-european_xing @ 15.851139
    6 russian_hgdp @ 16.240925
    7 mordovian_yunusbayev @ 16.480658
    8 ukranian_yunusbayev @ 16.483353
    9 british_1000genomes @ 17.443090
    10 utahn-white_1000genomes @ 17.640997
    11 russian_behar @ 19.023245
    12 slovenian_xing @ 21.127789
    13 hungarian_behar @ 22.077501
    14 french_hgdp @ 27.798826
    15 chuvash_behar @ 28.468716
    16 finnish_1000genomes @ 28.960686
    17 serbian_harappa @ 32.401299
    18 romanian-a_behar @ 38.579739
    19 spaniard_behar @ 40.877827
    20 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 40.977760
    
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% lithuanian_behar +50% orcadian_hgdp @ 6.368011
    
    
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% lithuanian_behar +25% orcadian_hgdp +25% orcadian_hgdp @ 6.368011
    
    
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 lithuanian_behar + lithuanian_behar + orcadian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp @ 6.368011
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-26-2018 at 11:54 AM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    No evidence.

    J2/L1/G2/R2a all migrated before significant Levant ancestry arrived in Iran IMO.

    Central India has a mix of haplogroups, but generally tribal hunter-gatherers living in heavily forested regions of the interior would carry higher levels of O, H1a, F and South Asian C

    However J2 and L1 are almost negligible in Eastern India whereas R2 is found at high levels, suggesting different migrations dates to me.

    J2a Iran + Caucasus - The oldest known J2a samples at present were identified in remains from the Hotu Cave in northern Iran, dating from 9100-8600 BCE (Lazaridis et al. 2016), and from Kotias Klde in Georgia, dating from 7940-7600 BCE (Jones et al. (2015)).
    Oldest L1a Areni-1 - I1632 Armenia Copper Age L1a1-M27*
    Oldest R2a - Ganj Dareh - I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399 calls
    Oldest G2a - I1671 Iran Neolithic G2a1a-FGC602(xG2a1a1) - I'm not sure if this is the oldest sample found so far
    I was just joking there about the geographical distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups- also by "middle", I meant the entirety of India except the east and west, not just central India. Anyway, it's just a joke lol.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    Most R2 in India (Including the recent ancient dna samples from Pakistan) have been of the R2a-L295+ type. Apparently there's R2-M479 (xM124) in India as well, but this also exists in parts outside of India quite frequently. Not to mention that there has been a recent discovery that most of these samples may be R2b-FGC21706, so a sister clade to R2a-M124.

    Either way, I think R2 in general likely originated in the junction of South, Central, and West Asia, this seems to be the hot spot today, and in the ancient times as well.
    Hello Tomasso29, thank you very much for this! Could you also tell what subclades the R2 ancient samples from Central Asia belonged to? They had the L295 mutation like the ancient Pakistan samples as well? Thank you very much again!

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    Hello Tomasso29, thank you very much for this! Could you also tell what subclades the R2 ancient samples from Central Asia belonged to? They had the L295 mutation like the ancient Pakistan samples as well? Thank you very much again!
    Here are the ancient samples from the latest study on this:

    # Country Location Haplogroup Timeline
    1 Iran Ganj Dareh R2a 8210-7845 BCE
    2 Iran Ganj Dareh R2a 8330-8255 BCE
    3 Iran Ganj Dareh R2a 8250-7850 BCE
    4 Iran Ganj Dareh R2a 8219-7761 BCE
    5 Iran Ganj Dareh R2a 8000-7700 BCE
    6 Pakistan Katelai R2a3a 1000-800 BCE
    7 Pakistan Aligrama R2a3a2b2b1 970-550 BCE
    8 Pakistan Loebanr R2a 900-800 BCE
    9 Pakistan Swat Valley R2a3a2b 500-300 BCE
    10 Turkmenistan Sumbar R2a 1600-1000 BCE
    11 Turkmenistan Tepe Anau R2a3a 4000-3000 BCE
    12 Turkmenistan Tepe Anau R2a 4000-3000 BCE
    13 Uzbekistan Sappali Tepe R2a 1881-1701 BCE
    14 Uzbekistan Sappali Tepe R2a 1971-1782 BC

    I should make a little correction to what I previously said, only one ancient sample from Pakistan is L295+ (The Aligrama sample on row 7). The other potential sample is on row 9 (Swat sample), though that's actually one subclade above L295. All the other younger samples likely had no calls on them, which means I'm not sure whether the Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan had L295 or not, but from the test provided, they are not labeled as such.

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  9. #26
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    I dont think at all that R2 is linked with IE migrations from the Steppe or we would have found him in the many samples we have. But the fact that it is found in Iran_Neolithic, the fact that Iran_Neolithic is ( or was? ) modeled as something CHG, something ANE and the fact that R is an obvious ANE lineage, makes me think that R2 tribes where a huge component to create the Iran_Neolithic genetic marker. It maybe went down south in Epipaleolithic from Central Asia / Afghanistan with other lineages like the Q we can found in some population of the middle-east as far as Arabia / Israel.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    3. Swat valley, 900-800 BCE: R2a. (...) and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.
    4. Swat valley, 500-300 BCE: R2a3a2b. (...) R1a1a1b,

    3. I6675- Sumbar_LBA, Turkmenistan, 1600-1000 BCE: R2a. (...) only person from Sumbar.
    4. I4087- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a. An ancient man.
    5. I4085- Tepe_Anau_EN, Turkmenistan, 4000-3000 BCE: R2a3a. (...) the only guys from the Tepe Anau site.

    There was also one I1945 from Ganj Dareh (samples first published in Lazaridis et al. 2016 apparently) who
    was R2a (...), and an R1 guy was also apparently found there (8241-7962 calBCE).
    It indirectly supports IEness of R2.
    Last edited by Rethel; 11-04-2018 at 10:46 AM.

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I dont think at all that R2 is linked with IE migrations from the Steppe
    It does not have to be from the steppe. It could be earlier from some outskirts - eastern or southern - of IE settlement.

    or we would have found him in the many samples we have.
    If then, it was a very small population - you wouldn't.
    R2 is widely spreaded from Lisabon through Poland to India.
    R2 was fourn at least in one medieval noble family, so there is no
    chance that it was brought by Gypsies. It had to be here much earlier.

    Btw, the same as you, people were saying about R1b, and later about V88. I was saying opposite.
    Now you have plaenty of R1b from east Europe and almost none from western, and the same with
    v88 - you have plenty of v88 samples from ancient eastern Europe especially from the steppe.

    I am not saying yet, that on 100% R2 is IE, but on 90% it is now very probable.

    But the fact that it is found in Iran_Neolithic, the fact that Iran_Neolithic is ( or was? ) modeled as something CHG, something ANE and the fact that R is an obvious ANE lineage, makes me think that R2 tribes where a huge component to create the Iran_Neolithic genetic marker.
    So here you have it.
    You obviously want to make me to claim 100%ness
    Last edited by Rethel; 11-04-2018 at 10:46 AM.

  13. #29
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    I have noticed a lot of updates in the R2 WTY project, and while it is modern DNA, I think adding that along with the current ancient DNA results we have so far gives off a strong indication that R2* might have come from Asia (Possibly Central Asia), but R2a seems more like a Western Asian lineage if you check out its current SNP diversity. Here are some highlights:

    R2a1-L263: Very rare and only found in West Asia among Armenians, Greeks, and Arabs so far.

    R2a2a-FGC13203: This is the main Jewish branch, it's found among both Ashkenazi and Mizrachi Jews, it's also found among other Western Asian populations such as Arabs, Persians, Armenians, and also some Europeans.

    R2a2b1-M9710: This is where most R2 lineages fall under, it contains almost all South Asians, Central Asians, Western Asians, and even some Europeans.

    R2a2b2-FGC46676: This is a smaller branch that exists among Western Asian populations such as Persians and Arabs for most part. But there's also a small number of Ashkenazi Jews and Europeans.

    R2b-FGC21706: This is the smaller R2 branch, it's rare and seems mostly confined to South, Central, and West Asia.

    Under the most common R2a lineage (R2a2b1-M9710), there seems to be a number of clusters. Most of them are West Asian and scattered among multiple different populations such as Arabs, Persians, Armenians, Georgians, Assyrians, etc, with the exception of R2a2b1b-Y8766, this is pretty much where most if not all South Asian R2a lineages fall under. However it's important to mention that this branch in itself is not exclusive to South Asians, there are also others from West Asia, Central Asia, and Europe in there.

    How is this all tied to the ancient DNA samples we have? Two of the samples fall under R2a2b1b2-FGC18148, their designation is different though (R2a3a2b and R2a3a2b2b1). This tells me that R2a2b1b2 (The dominant R2a lineage in South Asia) likely migrated there in a significant migration from an area near by that also has this lineage, and it must have happened quite recently (Possibly in the past 3000-5000 years or so). R2b on the other hand may have a different story.
    Last edited by Tomasso29; 11-29-2018 at 05:30 PM.

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  15. #30
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    And what story do you think will emerge for R2b? Do you think it could be a younger branch? Is it too early to firm up possible origins? Great post by the way. Nice summarisation!.

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