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Thread: Is Haplogroup R2 West Eurasian?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nonplussed View Post
    Something that nobody ever brings up: Mal'ta Boy, the oldest known carrier of R, and a basal R* lineage (neither R1 nor R2) has Indian genetic affinity.
    Better look at his wersten affinity. He was a mixed child. Indian au was a minority part. 50-60% was EHG (on your picture some 34%), 15-20% other caucasoidic and rest AmInd-like (on your pic. 17%). He just had some asiatic Pocahontas as a grandmother. Thats all. I guess, his family or clan was on the mammoth-trek heading from the west through the eurasiatic steppe. Most of his tribe had to stay at home and neighbourhood, probably somewhere between Volga and Ural, plus occasionaly probably did occupy parts of western Siberia, like Aftonova Gora - so the result was: Maltaboy.
    Last edited by Rethel; 12-29-2019 at 02:11 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    He just had some asiatic Pocahontas as a grandmother. Thats all. I guess
    This cope, lol. WE WUZ PRQ N' STUFF.

    https://i.imgur.com/ihbEHRg.png

    The trajectory of haplogroup K, and thus K2, and thus K2b, and thus P and thus R, follows a clear counterclockwise rotation through Eurasia. We have hundreds, if not thousands of samples from paleo Europe, and the very first R (or even general K2b for that matter) is only from 13kya in Villabruna.

    We have only a few from the ANE Siberians, and we see it's chock full of PRQ. The Yana ANEs from 33kya also have slightly more Eastern admixture than the Mal'ta ANEs from 24kya.

    Only a few from China as well, and we still see that K2b was in Beijing 42,000 years ago, in an autosomally East Eurasian population (Tianyuan Man) with zero ANE mixture.

    We also have present populations in the South Pacific (Aetas, Melanesians, various others) who show significant levels of P and other K2b groups, with zero ANE admixture. Incidentally, they show blondism as well, like Afontova Gora, but mediated with different alleles (perhaps light hair arose in SE Asia?)

    Even the early K2a (NO*) in Europe is all East Eurasian leaning as well. (Oase, Ust Ishim)
    Most logical explanation says: PRQ reached the Siberian Europeans from an East Eurasian population. Probably even K2 in general is East Eurasian, meaning MNOPQRS.

    Now back to the topic of R2. Since Mal'ta shares obvious Indian affinity, here are two possibilities here:
    1) an Indian-like population used to inhabit the Siberian steppe, until it was overtaken by European, Amerind, and East Siberian types.

    2) an Indian-like population colonized these peoples with PRQ.

    Given the extreme paucity of association between Euro HGs and anything K2, as well as the evidence that P expanded south to north rather than vice versa, it seems simple to accept the 2nd possibility over the 1st. P originated in SEAsia, some R spread to east India, and some of them ended up influencing something that would ultimately father the Mal'ta-like population. Which of course means that R2 could well have been of Indian, rather than Iranian origin.
    Last edited by nonplussed; 12-31-2019 at 07:20 PM. Reason: needed to include something

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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonplussed View Post
    Given the extreme paucity of association between Euro HGs and anything K2, as well as the evidence that P expanded south to north rather than vice versa, it seems simple to accept the 2nd possibility over the 1st. P originated in SEAsia, some R spread to east India, and some of them ended up influencing something that would ultimately father the Mal'ta-like population. Which of course means that R2 could well have been of Indian, rather than Iranian origin.
    Tbh, R's or R2's origin has nothing to do with India.

    Obviously the Yana P1 split somewhere in Northern Eurasia to become Q and R.

    We also don't know whether P originates in SE Asia. The diversity of early P branches in SE Asia indicates it has been able to preserve them well.

    What we do know:
    K2b was in China
    P1 was in Siberia
    oldest R found in Siberia
    oldest R1 found in Europe
    oldest R2 found in Iran (?)

    So going by whatever we know, R's earliest ancestors in East Asia were in Northern China. From there they move to Siberia. The R population moves westward and bifurcates into two, one ending up in Eastern Europe (R1) and the other heading towards either Caucasus or Central Asia (R2).

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy View Post
    Haplogroup R2 (one of the most common haplogroups in India) is in the same family as R1a. But it diverged from R1a a long time ago. It's very rare outside South Asia and it peaks in Sinhalese Sri Lankans and South Indians. Did this haplogroup come due to West Eurasian migrants or was it indigenous to India (Ancestral South Indians)?
    It peaks among Sinhalese as a community but are found at high percentages in a number of northernly sub-groups/castes like Jaunpur Kshatriyas, Karmalis of Bengal, Bihar Yadavs, and most Brahmins. Apart from this high among Kammas and Kallars. Seems to have a strong distribution in the Gangetic plains, Kaliga, Telugu regions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    I think, that it is possible, that R2 is the same IE as R1.
    There are very good reasons for that. Especially after
    discovering the Maltaboy, it is almost certain. And btw,
    there is no place for R2 in India without IEs. Dravidians
    are H, Indus Valley L, some Monkhmers O, and some
    old austroveddo-migrants C. Who would be R2? Noone.
    It is funny cause original Reich 2009 paper considered R2 as ASI while R1 as ANI. I on the other hand always believed that specific branches of C, F, K, HIJK, etc should only be ASI. Rest all migrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Better look at his wersten affinity. He was a mixed child. Indian au was a minority part. 50-60% was EHG (on your picture some 34%), 15-20% other caucasoidic and rest AmInd-like (on your pic. 17%). He just had some asiatic Pocahontas as a grandmother. Thats all. I guess, his family or clan was on the mammoth-trek heading from the west through the eurasiatic steppe. Most of his tribe had to stay at home and neighbourhood, probably somewhere between Volga and Ural, plus occasionaly probably did occupy parts of western Siberia, like Aftonova Gora - so the result was: Maltaboy.
    Malta Boy is ANE and if I'm not mistaken, EHG is a group derived from ANE, not the other way around. EHG has 75% ANE. And what's with the 19th century scientific races in pure genetic related forums? Isn't all African, West Eurasian, South Asian and East Eurasian in genetics? The reconstructions of old WHG, SHG and EHGs etc, classified as west-Eurasian, looked primitive proto-Australoids and proto-Mongoloids. Examples - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...Kosnenky_2.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N...Hitzemann).jpg
    Last edited by SpinosaurusN3H1; 01-02-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  7. #55
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    Y-DNA (P)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    It peaks among Sinhalese as a community but are found at high percentages in a number of northernly sub-groups/castes like Jaunpur Kshatriyas, Karmalis of Bengal, Bihar Yadavs, and most Brahmins. Apart from this high among Kammas and Kallars. Seems to have a strong distribution in the Gangetic plains, Kaliga, Telugu regions.
    The main South Asian distribution of R2 in South Asia appears to be clustered around Bengal and Andhra Pradesh (fairly similar to T1a and J2b) appears to mainly be R2a-Y26630 and R2a-L295 (this is a broad subclade that has many branches, with differing origins). Pakistan also seems to have another R2 cluster as well, which appears to be a mix of various R2a and R2b subclades, some of which aren't currently found in other parts of South Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    It is funny cause original Reich 2009 paper considered R2 as ASI while R1 as ANI. I on the other hand always believed that specific branches of C, F, K, HIJK, etc should only be ASI. Rest all migrants.
    The vast majority of R2 present in South Asia is R2a, which originated around West Iran. The R2a in SA can be split into R-FGC13203 and R-M9710, both of which appear to also have a West Asian origin. The R2b present in South Asia appears to have C/SC Asian origins. All of this doesn't lend well to the idea of R2 being ASI. I would class R2 in India as been a W/SC Asian phenomenon and not an AASI one.

    I'm not an expert on ancient Indian haplogroups, but if I had to guess, it would look like the first Y-DNA line to enter that region would've been H-M2826 (including samples previously classified as F* due to being M69-) (45600-44400 ybp), followed by C-K98 (46600-21300 ybp) followed by all of the other haplogropus we're familiar with.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-SK2142 > A26339 - M5a1a
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-Z2109 > Y84821 - U7a3a
    * MGMs F (?): L-M22 > M357 - ?
    * PGMs F (?): Q-F1096 > F4747 - ?
    * MGMs MGF (?): R1a-Z93 > Y7 - ?

    Friends Haplos:
    * North Moroccan Berber: E-M35 > M81 - R0
    * Han Chinese: O-M117 > F1531 - M7e
    * Gujarati Lohana (?): T-Y11151 > Y13290 - R30b1

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  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    The main South Asian distribution of R2 in South Asia appears to be clustered around Bengal and Andhra Pradesh (fairly similar to T1a and J2b) appears to mainly be R2a-Y26630 and R2a-L295 (this is a broad subclade that has many branches, with differing origins). Pakistan also seems to have another R2 cluster as well, which appears to be a mix of various R2a and R2b subclades, some of which aren't currently found in other parts of South Asia.



    The vast majority of R2 present in South Asia is R2a, which originated around West Iran. The R2a in SA can be split into R-FGC13203 and R-M9710, both of which appear to also have a West Asian origin. The R2b present in South Asia appears to have C/SC Asian origins. All of this doesn't lend well to the idea of R2 being ASI. I would class R2 in India as been a W/SC Asian phenomenon and not an AASI one.

    I'm not an expert on ancient Indian haplogroups, but if I had to guess, it would look like the first Y-DNA line to enter that region would've been H-M2826 (including samples previously classified as F* due to being M69-) (45600-44400 ybp), followed by C-K98 (46600-21300 ybp) followed by all of the other haplogropus we're familiar with.
    Interesting. What do you think is the origin of R-L295?

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  10. #57
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    Y-DNA (P)
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    mtDNA (M)
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    R1b-Z2109 > Y84821
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    Quote Originally Posted by indusnomad View Post
    Interesting. What do you think is the origin of R-L295?
    Most likely West Iran imo
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-SK2142 > A26339 - M5a1a
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-Z2109 > Y84821 - U7a3a
    * MGMs F (?): L-M22 > M357 - ?
    * PGMs F (?): Q-F1096 > F4747 - ?
    * MGMs MGF (?): R1a-Z93 > Y7 - ?

    Friends Haplos:
    * North Moroccan Berber: E-M35 > M81 - R0
    * Han Chinese: O-M117 > F1531 - M7e
    * Gujarati Lohana (?): T-Y11151 > Y13290 - R30b1

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  12. #58
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    R-L295
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    Thanks

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