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Thread: S/SC ASIAN Results :: FTDNA

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    True, but from the South Asian context, when trying to check West Asian ancestry, for example, in old-school Christians from India, using Iraqi Jews or other West Asians would be similar. Basically, these West Eurasian populations are so similar to each other, relative to South Asians, that determining "foreign" ancestry is pretty easy using whichever group as proxy. Similar to using Finn or Norwegian as a proxy to get Steppe. Sure, Finns are a different linguistic group than Norwegians, but genetically, they and Norwegians are relatively close enough to use either as a modern proxy for South Asian steppe.

    Slap me down if I'm off. Open to being corrected.
    You are totally correct. All he needs to make the nMonte fit good is to be a certain % pulled away from South Asia towards West Asia, which any of the W Asian populations can supply. We can narrow down that he doesn't need a pull towards SSA as well, so that will exclude some W Asian populations. At that distance, many populations are a good choice, and then you need to use history and common sense to figure out which is most likely.

    For example my cousin is half British; if we nMonte her, it will be difficult to figure out anything -- so let's say we nMonte'd one of her kids, who are now 25% British. So they will definitely plot near and along the South Asian spectrum but pulled towards Europe... however which group in Europe will not be clear at all... because at that distance most of Europe will be a good proxy for the % pull they need away from the main SA cline. Even if you could figure out the pull was towards the UK (which is just not likely... but even...) then how would you figure out it's specifically towards the Welsh, Irish, English, Scottish, etc? This is actually a more fitting comparison for what we are doing with these results... we can figure out Levant probably... but which group from this region is orders of magnitude harder. The way to make it easier, is make as much of the equation "known" as possible. ie. for my cousin, I would not use general Pakistani populations as one part of the nMonte... I'd use an average of specific members of my family. So, Khandaan + _________ and let nMonte solve...the more specific you are on one side of the equation, the more specific outputs you will get. If the goal is solve for X, then it doesn't matter what the mix of my khandaan (specifically the part she shares) is, we aren't solving for that... we are solving for the mix away from my family.

    However, I've been able to figure out specific countries before by seeing pull on 3 dimensions and across various admixture calculators. f.ex. there is a user on here who is Iranian, I was noting on several plots that there was consistent pull towards what was most likely Egyptian to me, so I told him that, and it turns out his great grandparent was Egyptian. Now, this was still a guess, and there was lots of deduction involved just to reach an opinion that there is a chance he may have some Egyptian ancestors. It was even more unsure because there was no reason to assume he had some outside lineage because he still fit well in the Iranian cline -- I was just noticing slight deviations.

    So in the case we have here, we start with the known history and test it. W Asian Jewish is a good proxy, Assyrians, Syrians; etc. Try modeling with just local populations and see if a fit becomes bad. Try modeling with all SA populations, see if the fit is bad. Eventually the idea is to get to the point where you form the model of just local populace + specific distant external source and the fits are notably superior to local populace + regional sources. So basically, we need to model the Kerala Syrian Christians as solely: non-Christian Malayali + _______ and then look at the patterns for deduction. Censored's model is basically breaking down the Malayali part into regional stand-ins. This complicates the matter when trying to figure out what X is. They are all going to be Malayali + something or nothing... so to get the most accurate estimation of what that something/nothing is, we start with the most accurate known, a Malayali average, or the closest thing to it (which covers the majority of their SA ancestry in the correct proportions), and attempt to solve for X. The first thing to try is Malayali + Assyrian. This is the same logic I would apply to a Parsi; Gujarati + Zoroastrian.

    Now we don't have a Malayali average on G25, I don't think, but we made some for Gedmatch, so one can use that to deduce things. Though the majority of those were Christians, so I suppose to be safe, just use the Muslim and Hindu scores.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 10-14-2018 at 06:20 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  3. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    It looks negroid?
    NO she does not, while her nose maybe a bit exaggerated she looks like Indian women I have seen, in particular those who hail from Hyderabad, but I am sure she would fit in most places in India .

  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Question -- I know very little about the history of Indian Christians, but it sounds like many have Europeanized names. Middle Eastern names for ancient Christians would have been Yakub instead of Joseph, Yohan instead of John, etc. right? Did they "anglicize" after the British/Portuguese?
    The anglicisation is recent and I think it started happening during grandparent's time probably due to British influence . My paternal great grandfather's name was Yohannan but my in grandfather's name it was changed to John . Similarly my maternal great grandfather's name was Mathai which got changed to Mathew .
    As rusty said many of our generation have generic indian names or meaningless like Bijo,Sijo,Binu,Jinu etc instead of biblical names .Some have even non biblical european names like Richard ,William ,Eric ,Alan etc .

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  6. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    Trajects sister would be a better example since she shows a more significant west asian signal. But i doubt this trend exists for all non-knanaya Syrians since they are a much larger group spread throughout Kerala and have origins from almost every section of society. Just looking at some of the Gedmatch kits the non-knanaya kits vary greatly in their Harappa scores with some being very ASI shifted while others have elevated caucasian+SW asian indicating admixture but to a lesser degree than the knanaya kits.
    it would be nice to get some G25s of syrians from south kerala as these areas never had a knanaya presence and so theirs no chance of diffusion from us.
    Traject like me seems to be less west Asian shifted than the average at least going by various gedmatch calculators. I would be even less west Asian shifted than traject . Even though there are many gedmatch kits for most kits I don't know the exact origins . But with the few I know the trend seems to be south Kerala Syrians seems to be more SI shifted and less west Asian shifted compared to central Kerala Syrians . But we would need more robust data to be sure .

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  8. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    Traject like me seems to be less west Asian shifted than the average at least going by various gedmatch calculators. I would be even less west Asian shifted than traject . Even though there are many gedmatch kits for most kits I don't know the exact origins . But with the few I know the trend seems to be south Kerala Syrians seems to be more SI shifted and less west Asian shifted compared to central Kerala Syrians . But we would need more robust data to be sure .
    Do you think it has to do with differences in conversion policies between different churches? There is a geographical pattern to denominational affiliation afterall, as it gets more catholic as you move north and more orthodox/Jacobite/marthomite ad you move south. Do you think the latter groups may have been more open to conversion? I know the marthomite Church was very progressive in this regard given the Protestant influence. or maybe the constant infighting between orthodox/Jacobite/marthomite could have motivated them to get more members in order to gain some power over each other?

  9. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustyshakelford View Post
    Do you think it has to do with differences in conversion policies between different churches? There is a geographical pattern to denominational affiliation afterall, as it gets more catholic as you move north and more orthodox/Jacobite/marthomite ad you move south. Do you think the latter groups may have been more open to conversion? I know the marthomite Church was very progressive in this regard given the Protestant influence. or maybe the constant infighting between orthodox/Jacobite/marthomite could have motivated them to get more members in order to gain some power over each other?
    Those events are too recent .I don't think it would affect as we would actually be knowing recent events .

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