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Thread: 150? (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269....) above, below or both or what else?

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    150? (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269....) above, below or both or what else?

    I see that FTDNA still treats L150 haplogroup label-wise as downstream of L23.

    However, we do find L150+ L23- people, or at least FTDNA reports such.

    Since we found that there is L150- downstream of L23 too, so I think the result was that ISOGG was considering this a back-mutation and therefore "L150.2"

    I'm starting this thread as I'm trying to sort out the haplotypes that are L150+ L23- and in another group L23+ L150-. I thought it was making sense but Rometti is a dificult one. Is he considered L150.2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Since we found that there is L150- downstream of L23 too, so I think the result was that ISOGG was considering this a back-mutation and therefore "L150.2"
    The probabilities of L150+ L23- being carriers of a back mutation at the L23 position is technically equal to the probability that the L23+ mutation arose amongst a subgroup of L150+.

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     kinman (08-06-2015)

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    If there are L150+ L23- people and L23+ L150- people

    ...and...

    there are L150+ Z2103/Z2015- people and Z2103/Z2015+ L150- people...

    ...then it looks like there were two back mutations, no?

    At first it looks to be an unstable SNP, but I've never seen a L51+ who is L150-. Very strange.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  6. #4
    I have written hundreds of letters about this, also here and recently.
    1) It has been always said that L150+ was linked to L23+, then it was presupposed that M269 was L150-.
    2) We know from many years that there are some L23+ who are L150-. Actually they are only two: Italian Romitti and English Seymour. In this case it is considered a back mutation.
    3) But it is becoming clear that the R-M269* tested (firstly some people of Jewish origin) are L150+. It has been presupposed a mutation in R-M269 independent from that on L23+, but these people tested are also PF7558, PF7562, PF7563+. At this point L150 is useless. These people are M269+, L150+, PF7558/PF/562/PF7563+. These are the distinctive SNPs. I asked if there are some R-M269 who are L150-, that was presupposed, but I haven’t seen anyone so far. Neither I have seen one R-M269 who is PF7558/PF7562/PF7563-. For this I have ordered a Geno 2.0 for my acquired cousin Fabrizio Federighi of ancient Tuscan origin to see this. He has DYS462=12 and not 11. I’d be glad also to test some other R-M269, for instance LoPiccolo etc.
    4) It is very likely so far that this tested R-M269 are the unique line survived and scattered all over Europe and Middle East.
    5) I am waiting an answer to these questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    1) It has been always said that L150+ was linked to L23+, then it was presupposed that M269 was L150-.
    2) We know from many years that there are some L23+ who are L150-. Actually they are only two: Italian Romitti and English Seymour. In this case it is considered a back mutation.
    3) But it is becoming clear that the R-M269* tested (firstly some people of Jewish origin) are L150+. It has been presupposed a mutation in R-M269 independent from that on L23+, but these people tested are also PF7558, PF7562, PF7563+. At this point L150 is useless. These people are M269+, L150+, PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+. These are the distinctive SNPs. I asked if there are some R-M269 who are L150-, that was presupposed, but I haven’t seen anyone so far. Neither I have seen one R-M269 who is PF7558/PF7562/PF7563-. For this I have ordered a Geno 2.0 for my acquired cousin Fabrizio Federighi of ancient Tuscan origin to see this. He has DYS462=12 and not 11. I’d be glad also to test some other R-M269, for instance LoPiccolo etc.
    4) It is very likely so far that this tested R-M269 are the unique line survived and scattered all over Europe and Middle East.
    5) I am waiting an answer to these questions.

    I stopped thinking about this for a long time because it was just getting too confusing.

    Personally, I think L150 is above L23, but I agree with Rathna that the SNPs PF7558/PF7562/PF7563 as tested on the Geno 2.0 chip provide more meaningful results now than checking for L150 and L23. Thomas Krahn doesn't really trust either L150 or L23 as reliable because there are apparently very similar sequences elsewhere in the genome that are prone to recombination events which may overwrite the L23 and L150 markers back to their ancestral state. He has suggested in the past to remove them from the Y-tree because of this. Maybe most problematic is L150. The highly repetitive area next to L150 (in the heterochromatic centromere region of the Y chromosome) could overwrite things which perhaps can lead to unpredicted results, according to Thomas.

    The L150+ results in the known L150+ L23- Geno 2.0 kits were not tested with conventional sequencing technology. Thomas thought it would make sense to confirm the L150+ (and probably also L23-) result for at least one of the PF7558/PF7562/PF7563 kits with Sanger sequencing, because the Geno2 chip can always have a small percentage of wrong calls and another SNP in the close proximity of L150 could cause a misinterpretation of the allele call. FYI, SNP tests for PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563 are available for order from FTDNA.

    I thought about ordering stand-alone SNP tests for L150 and L23 for my cousin's kit (one of the PF7558/PF7562/PF7563 kits listed at the top of the ht35 project), but have not done it. I might reconsider if people think it would help to better understand the situation and lead to a more accurate Y-tree. M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ is clearly a parallel group to L23, IMHO.
    Last edited by seferhabahir; 10-17-2013 at 07:39 PM.

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     Joe B (10-17-2013)

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by seferhabahir View Post
    M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ is clearly a parallel group to L23, IMHO.
    I don’t understand this. It may have a meaning if you assume that the most important SNP is just L150 you have said unreliable, because it is the unique SNP unchanged between these two groups, and this is followed in the R1b Jewish project, but who is R-M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ is also L23- and L49-, then these aren’t parallel groups, but one is R-M269* and the other R-L23* (which doesn’t exist per se, being all the L23 also L150+, except two, and at least Z2103/Z2105+).

    The problem for me is if there is some R-M269* which is not only L150- (which was the first hypothesis but I haven’t seen anyone so far) but also PF7558- and /or PF7562- and/or PF7563-.
    Last edited by Rathna; 10-17-2013 at 07:55 PM.

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    Maybe parallel was not the right choice of words here. I guess what I meant to say was that it looks to me like there are two groups under M269+/L150+. One group that is L23- and usally has DYS426=11 and one group that is L23+ and usually has DYS426=12. These would correspond to the way that groups A and B are shown in the Jewish R1b and ht35 projects, group A being L23- and group B being L23+. Group A appears to be PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ as well, although that remains to be seen. We have conjectured that this would be true as well for people like Gashi who is L150+, L23-, and DYS426=11.

  11. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by seferhabahir View Post
    Maybe parallel was not the right choice of words here. I guess what I meant to say was that it looks to me like there are two groups under M269+/L150+. One group that is L23- and usally has DYS426=11 and one group that is L23+ and usually has DYS426=12. These would correspond to the way that groups A and B are shown in the Jewish R1b and ht35 projects, group A being L23- and group B being L23+. Group A appears to be PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ as well, although that remains to be seen. We have conjectured that this would be true as well for people like Gashi who is L150+, L23-, and DYS426=11.
    Yes, parallel like U106 and P312 or like Z2103/Z2105 and L51 etc. Anyway R-M269+/L150+/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ isn't the ancestor of R-L23* but a paragroup which could be also the unique survived, but we hope to find some R-M269+/L150- or R-M269+/L150+ but PF7558- etc.
    It is incredible that no one R-M269* has been tested beyond these six on the "ht 35 fTDNA Project"!

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    Here are the folks I'm finding that I think are R1b-M269* but L150+. They all are 426=11 and I'm pretty sure they are all L23- whether they tested for it or not.

    f118810 Bakaturski M269+ L150+ U106- mm-a42611-150 Lithuania, Vilnius (Jewish project)

    f126775 Bardige M269+ L150+ PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Ukraine, Berestechko (Jewish project)

    f274480 Bebrovo M269+ L150+ mm-a42611-150 Bulgaria

    f226720 Fabrikant M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Belarus, Vetka

    fE16492 Gashi M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Albania

    f152308 Jaffe M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 Lithuania (Jewish project)

    fN114224 Lifschitz M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Belarus

    f236409 Sobelman M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 zzzUnkOrigin

    fN29316 Sznajderman M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 Poland, Izbica (Jewish project)

    fN92413 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Greece

    f282121 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Ireland

    fE10342 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 zzzUnkOrigin

    fN106699 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 zzzUnkOrigin


    They tend to be 393=12 391=10 392=14 406s1>=12 534<=14 to go with 426=11. As always, if you see any errors, let me know. I'm rearranging and cleaning up the R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 10-18-2013 at 01:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Here are the folks I'm finding that I think are R1b-M269* but L150+. They all are 426=11 and I'm pretty sure they are all L23- whether they tested for it or not.

    f118810 Bakaturski M269+ L150+ U106- mm-a42611-150 Lithuania, Vilnius (Jewish project)

    f126775 Bardige M269+ L150+ PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Ukraine, Berestechko (Jewish project)

    f274480 Bebrovo M269+ L150+ mm-a42611-150 Bulgaria

    f226720 Fabrikant M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Belarus, Vetka

    fE16492 Gashi M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Albania

    f152308 Jaffe M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 Lithuania (Jewish project)

    fN114224 Lifschitz M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Belarus

    f236409 Sobelman M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 zzzUnkOrigin

    fN29316 Sznajderman M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 Poland, Izbica (Jewish project)

    fN92413 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Greece

    f282121 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L23- mm-a42611-150 Ireland

    fE10342 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 zzzUnkOrigin

    fN106699 zzzUnknown M269+ L150+ L51- mm-a42611-150 zzzUnkOrigin


    They tend to be 393=12 391=10 392=14 406s1>=12 534<=14 to go with 426=11. As always, if you see any errors, let me know. I'm rearranging and cleaning up the R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet.
    I think this guy might qualify.

    N57861 White White Surname Project R1b1a2a1 L150.? PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563+, Geno2.0
    12 25 14 11 11-15 11 12 12 14 13 30

    Saw him hanging out with a L150/CTS7822+ (N114393) in the White surname project.

    You found several that I didn't know about. Thank you for doing this.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-18-2013 at 03:09 AM.

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