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Thread: Indo Aryan migration , still an accurate hypothesis ?

  1. #1
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    Indo Aryan migration , still an accurate hypothesis ?

    Sorry to badger you with my question and apologies in advance should I appear to be misinformed in this area. Like most of you guys , I uploaded my 23AndMe sample to GedMatch , the results of which is posted below .
    I assume the common narrative is to subscribe to some form of the Indo Aryan origin for Iranian people .
    To satiate my sense of curiosity,I saw it fit to channel my questions here. Like a typical Iranian , I show high levels of Caucasian and Baloch(may I assume Gedrosia?) and show a close affinity to Kurds and Azaries . Getting quite a high south_central_asian despite not having any immediate ancestry (so far as I can tell).
    Below you can find some of these results .
    Paternal Haplogroup: G-CTS11562. (G1)
    Maternal Haplogroup:H13a1a2

    Kit Number: M914631 Elapsed Time: 10.51 seconds
    EuroGene K36*
    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 2.51
    Armenian 9.89
    Basque -
    Central_African 1.22
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 13.42
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French 1.81
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 3.78
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 16.39
    North_African 0.34
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian 18.02
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian 0.58
    South_Central_Asian 26.96[/B][/B]
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural 0.35
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 4.74
    West_Med -

    Harappa*
    Kit Number: M914631 Elapsed Time: 7.36 seconds


    Population
    S-Indian 3.20
    Baloch 28.39
    Caucasian 39.53
    NE-Euro 6.59
    SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.59
    NE-Asian 2.78
    Papuan -
    American -
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 6.32
    SW-Asian 10.34
    San 0.65
    E-African 0.20
    Pygmy -
    W-African

    I for one can't make sense of this high South Central Asian marker . Also , if we are to assume an Indo Aryan origin for recent Iranians, why is it that the recent Iranians show such high similarity with their ancient samples like IRAN CHL(M169040 ) and M967114 (I1290 IranN) and so little for say a M374116 (Scythian I0247) and M277797 (RISE395_Sintashta). The formers being dominated by North/NorthEast European ancestry. If anything , it seems like Euro gene ancestry in recent Iranians is more of a contemporary thing . Shouldn't we expect an ancient Persian/Mede sample to show a much greater correlation with that of Sintashta or Scythian sample if a mass migration of Indo Europeans into Iranian plateau had indeed happened ?
    I have no biased opinion regardless and only intend to augment my personal knowledge.
    Last edited by sourenaair; 06-26-2018 at 06:12 PM.

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  3. #2
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    The oldest ancient DNA of IndoAryans analyzed so far was from the early IronAge Swat Valley in Pakistan. Swat Valley was ground-zero for RigVeda. The timing (early Iron Age) and location (Swat Valley) indicate that the aDNA from there were indeed IndoAryans.

    But, it turns out, those ancient Swat Valley samples were 1) lacking much of Steppe prevalent in modern NorthWest South Asians and in the Brahmins and 2) R1a was nowhere to be seen in those early IronAge Swat Valley samples! From bloggers to casual observers were expecting massive steppe and/or R1a in those Swat Valley samples. But, nope.

    If the Steppe hypothesis was indeed the cause for dispersal of IndoAryan in South Asia, then we must somehow explain away those Swat Valley samples(a hundred of them) as "anomaly". Looks like they were the rule not the exception. The cold reality was that Steppe was so diluted by the time it reached South Asia that they had no impact during the late Bronze Age/early Iron Age South Asia.

    Subsequent waves of steppe arrived with Sakas and Kushans to cause the modern rise in steppe, perhaps also R1a.

    At this time, we know that IVC lacked steppe altogether and the early IronAge brought SOME steppe. So, steppe hypothesis for South Asia is still the incumbent hypothesis. Unless IVC was indeed Indo-Aryan, then Steppe is dead for South Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    The oldest ancient DNA of IndoAryans analyzed so far was from the early IronAge Swat Valley in Pakistan. Swat Valley was ground-zero for RigVeda. The timing (early Iron Age) and location (Swat Valley) indicate that the aDNA from there were indeed IndoAryans.

    But, it turns out, those ancient Swat Valley samples were 1) lacking much of Steppe prevalent in modern NorthWest South Asians and in the Brahmins and 2) R1a was nowhere to be seen in those early IronAge Swat Valley samples! From bloggers to casual observers were expecting massive steppe and/or R1a in those Swat Valley samples. But, nope.

    If the Steppe hypothesis was indeed the cause for dispersal of IndoAryan in South Asia, then we must somehow explain away those Swat Valley samples(a hundred of them) as "anomaly". Looks like they were the rule not the exception. The cold reality was that Steppe was so diluted by the time it reached South Asia that they had no impact during the late Bronze Age/early Iron Age South Asia.

    Subsequent waves of steppe arrived with Sakas and Kushans to cause the modern rise in steppe, perhaps also R1a.

    At this time, we know that IVC lacked steppe altogether and the early IronAge brought SOME steppe. So, steppe hypothesis for South Asia is still the incumbent hypothesis. Unless IVC was indeed Indo-Aryan, then Steppe is dead for South Asia.

    A decent narrative supported by my in depth analysis using formal stats such as qpAdm and dstats, with full details to be published soon.

    The only thing I still need to analyze is the amount of MLBA in Swat-IA

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    Quote Originally Posted by sourenaair View Post
    Sorry to badger you with my question and apologies in advance should I appear to be misinformed in this area. Like most of you guys , I uploaded my 23AndMe sample to GedMatch , the results of which is posted below .
    I assume the common narrative is to subscribe to some form of the Indo Aryan origin for Iranian people .
    To satiate my sense of curiosity,I saw it fit to channel my questions here. Like a typical Iranian , I show high levels of Caucasian and Baloch(may I assume Gedrosia?) and show a close affinity to Kurds and Azaries . Getting quite a high south_central_asian despite not having any immediate ancestry (so far as I can tell).
    Below you can find some of these results .
    Paternal Haplogroup: G-CTS11562. (G1)
    Maternal Haplogroup:H13a1a2

    Kit Number: M914631 Elapsed Time: 10.51 seconds
    EuroGene K36*
    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 2.51
    Armenian 9.89
    Basque -
    Central_African 1.22
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 13.42
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French 1.81
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 3.78
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 16.39
    North_African 0.34
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian 18.02
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian 0.58
    South_Central_Asian 26.96[/B][/B]
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural 0.35
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 4.74
    West_Med -

    Harappa*
    Kit Number: M914631 Elapsed Time: 7.36 seconds


    Population
    S-Indian 3.20
    Baloch 28.39
    Caucasian 39.53
    NE-Euro 6.59
    SE-Asian -
    Siberian 0.59
    NE-Asian 2.78
    Papuan -
    American -
    Beringian -
    Mediterranean 6.32
    SW-Asian 10.34
    San 0.65
    E-African 0.20
    Pygmy -
    W-African

    I for one can't make sense of this high South Central Asian marker . Also , if we are to assume an Indo Aryan origin for recent Iranians, why is it that the recent Iranians show such high similarity with their ancient samples like IRAN CHL(M169040 ) and M967114 (I1290 IranN) and so little for say a M374116 (Scythian I0247) and M277797 (RISE395_Sintashta). The formers being dominated by North/NorthEast European ancestry. If anything , it seems like Euro gene ancestry in recent Iranians is more of a contemporary thing . Shouldn't we expect an ancient Persian/Mede sample to show a much greater correlation with that of Sintashta or Scythian sample if a mass migration of Indo Europeans into Iranian plateau had indeed happened ?
    I have no biased opinion regardless and only intend to augment my personal knowledge.
    The genetic connections connecting Kurds and plateau Iranians to Central Asia are complex and span various time periods. Medes, Parthians, Sarmatians, Saka, and Turkics are just some that served as a conduit for DNA westwards into Iran and Kurdistan. My latest K36 BA/IA calculator soon to be available at GenePlaza lends some perspective on this. Coincidentally Iranians and Kurds are highest scorers of BA Uzbekistan (BMAC). Then of couse you have Middle Age and more recent geneflow eastward Kurds —> Balochistan. It’s rather complex.

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    Still , if a mass migration of the so called Aryans into Iranian plateau had ever taken place (so massive that it completely displaced the natives ) , wouldn't an Iranian (Persian/Mede ) sample for example show a much higher resemblance to Sintashta\Steppes than they do to their neolithic ancestors (dominated by Caucasian or Baloch ) ?
    I believe you are suggesting that ancient Indo valley samples analyzed thus far were pre -second wave migration of those people from Steppe .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurd View Post
    A decent narrative supported by my in depth analysis using formal stats such as qpAdm and dstats, with full details to be published soon.

    The only thing I still need to analyze is the amount of MLBA in Swat-IA
    Exciting times. Finally questions will be answered using real aDNA and all these 19th and 20th centuries hypotheses will be literally tested.

    Pegasus put it perfectly when he said that the steppe-rich folks arriving in South/Central Asia was akin to arriving at the night club at 6am. We know for a fact that steppe rich R1a folks were in Central Asia, but -- instead of heading to the metaphorical night club -- they partied at the neighboring town's Walmart parking lot lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sourenaair View Post
    Still , if a mass migration of the so called Aryans into Iranian plateau had ever taken place (so massive that it completely displaced the natives ) , wouldn't an Iranian (Persian/Mede ) sample for example show a much higher resemblance to Sintashta\Steppes than they do to their neolithic ancestors (dominated by Caucasian or Baloch ) ?
    I believe you are suggesting that ancient Indo valley samples analyzed thus far were pre -second wave migration of those people from Steppe .
    The most popular theory is that the Ancestors of the Medes and Persians came from the BMAC and those people had high South Central Asian and Caucasian already and with some North European. These people were mostly Iranized native BMAC people.

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    Thanks, haven't been able to find a BMAC sample , do you know of any such kit ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Pegasus put it perfectly when he said that the steppe-rich folks arriving in South/Central Asia was akin to arriving at the night club at 6am. We know for a fact that steppe rich R1a folks were in Central Asia, but -- instead of heading to the metaphorical night club -- they partied at the neighboring town's Walmart parking lot lol
    If so, it seems like they made it to the right place on time anyway, considering the high correlation between steppe ancestry, R1a and the upper castes in India.

    No other group has made such a big impact on the genetic structure of male Indian upper castes, despite its relatively recent arrival in South Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    If so, it seems like they made it to the right place on time anyway, considering the high correlation between steppe ancestry, R1a and the upper castes in India.

    No other group has made such a big impact on the genetic structure of male Indian upper castes, despite its relatively recent arrival in South Asia.
    Kalash have the highest steppe and they are pretty low on R1a as well. But, at least with the brahmins, R1a and steppe are pretty much correlated. It is indeed interesting and an enigma. This would have been a non-issue if those Swat folks had higher Steppe and even a few R1as... but dozens of samples from the early IronAge without any R1a? Swat IA even had Es, R1bs, and every goddamn ydna except for R1a lol

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