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Thread: Indo Aryan migration , still an accurate hypothesis ?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    @Poi Those Kashkarachi nomads are useless wrt to Indo Aryans, its far too late, but related peoples migrate to Western China than back, when the Chinese and Proto Altaics/Turks kick them out. That Dzarkhutan girl from 4000 years ago is interesting she is the earliest mix of Steppe and roughly 15% Irula like mixture.
    They're not useless, because they demonstrate that unadmixed Steppe_MLBA groups rich in R1a-Z645 were living in South Central Asia during the Bronze Age. This is a very important point, and would have caused a shock a couple of years ago when it was still assumed that R1a was native to South Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    We need to make sure SouthAsian steppe+R1a was indeed IndoAryan and not Eastern Iranics like Saka and Kushans moving in after 300 BCE. Why would Swat Valley Iron Age be lower steppe than today's populations? And Ferghana Valley was the neighboring town's parking lot, metaphorically speaking, not the Swat-y night club where all the action was.
    You can't explain the structure and high levels of R1a in Indo-Aryans across India by invoking widespread Eastern Iranian admixture.

    It's just not a plausible explanation. Holes in ancient DNA sampling will remain for a while, but there's no reason to be neurotic about it. Present-day DNA can be useful in the meantime.

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  5. #23
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    Another thing to add Poi, that Dzarkhutan girl represents a similar situation to what you see in Swat/Gandhara , women with Steppe Mtdna and Steppe ancestry, which Narsimhan also noted in a recent tweet wrt to women found in the Swat , where there is a good amount of Steppe Mtdna but lack of Steppe Y dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    You can't explain the structure and high levels of R1a in Indo-Aryans across India by invoking widespread Eastern Iranian admixture.

    It's just not a plausible explanation. Holes in ancient DNA sampling will remain for a while, but there's no reason to be neurotic about it. Present-day DNA can be useful in the meantime.
    A couple of things: R1a is clearly high in modern pops due to the founder effect. Also, the "holes" are big enough as the ground zero for Indo Aryan, Swatsu Valley in the early IronAge, had absolutely zero R1a and lower steppe. You can't blame neurotocism for bringing up that fact. Dna.land says my neurotocism is low lol, so I cannot accept that explanation. I agree though more aDNA is needed, but hundred Swatsu samples can't be anomalies.

    Furthermore, I do not think anyone is invoking "widespread" East Iranic admixture, but just enough to bring in R1a and a bit of extra steppe among certain populations. We know that the marital practices of South Asians, especially we're so patrilineal in practice, would cause massive founder effect. That is the fact. Everything else is just speculation and we need to wait for more data.
    Last edited by poi; 06-27-2018 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Another thing to add Poi, that Dzarkhutan girl represents a similar situation to what you see in Swat/Gandhara , women with Steppe Mtdna and Steppe ancestry, which Narsimhan also noted in a recent tweet wrt to women found in the Swat , where there is a good amount of Steppe Mtdna but lack of Steppe Y dna.
    I am probably late to the party, but is it fair to say that high steppe NW periphery groups like Kalash have high steppe auDNA and low steppe yDNA due to female mediated steppe infusion? If steppe is female mediated in those high steppe groups, then we have to discount steppe altogether, for now, when bringing up Indo-Aryaness of high steppe groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Please educate yourself. The blogger on eurogenes posted on April 20, 2017:

    I'm betting they'll be modeled as well over 50% Steppe_EMBA or Yamnaya-related. In other words, similar to the Kalasha people of the Hindu Kush, but even more Yamnaya-like. Exciting times ahead.
    Which turned out to be true ...
    Are you being sarcastic perhaps? 50%, really? And that these predictions turned out correct, especially with regards to Z93?

    Davidski said... So R1a-Z93 should appear in South Asia at the same time as Yamnaya-related ancestry from the steppe, and only become relatively common there during the final phase of the Indus Valley Civilization, or even after its collapse.
    Davidski said...
    Swat will have Z93 and steppe admixture, as expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sourenaair View Post
    Still , if a mass migration of the so called Aryans into Iranian plateau had ever taken place (so massive that it completely displaced the natives ) , wouldn't an Iranian (Persian/Mede ) sample for example show a much higher resemblance to Sintashta\Steppes than they do to their neolithic ancestors (dominated by Caucasian or Baloch ) ?
    I believe you are suggesting that ancient Indo valley samples analyzed thus far were pre -second wave migration of those people from Steppe .
    If I may ask, are you a Zoroastrian or of Zoroastrian descent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I am probably late to the party, but is it fair to say that high steppe NW periphery groups like Kalash have high steppe auDNA and low steppe yDNA due to female mediated steppe infusion? If steppe is female mediated in those high steppe groups, then we have to discount steppe altogether, for now, when bringing up Indo-Aryaness of high steppe groups.

    You don't have to be Steppe rich to cause a cultural change, case and point are early Avestans/ Persians, Iranian plateau was Aryanized fairly rapidly. Those Saidu Sharif like people are not Steppe rich like Jats but it is they who seem to be spreading the Indo Aryan cultural tool kit.

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    Not as far as I know , I know for fact that my paternal line has been rooted in Fars province for the past 2 generations and my maternal somehow reaches to Caucasus. What made you think so ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    @Poi Those Kashkarachi nomads are useless wrt to Indo Aryans, its far too late, but related peoples migrate to Western China than back, when the Chinese and Proto Altaics/Turks kick them out. That Dzarkhutan girl from 4000 years ago is interesting she is the earliest mix of Steppe and roughly 15% Irula like mixture.
    I agree. Calling those nomads as IndoAryans-like due of their high steppe is a prime example of circular reasoning in action. The actual IndoAryans from the early Iron Age, based on the actual aDNA, were the opposite of those nomads. The importance of steppe in SouthAsian IndoAryan history seems to be highly exaggerated. Until proven otherwise by future aDNA to discount those hundred Swat Valley samples, the fact remains that steppe has minimal, at best, importance to IndoAryans. And R1a had absolutely none. Period.

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