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Thread: New Group: U152 > L2 > 13685121 (C/T) > 21885515 (C/T)

  1. #1
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    New Group: U152 > L2 > 13685121 (C/T) > 21885515 (C/T)

    Some exciting news for L2* folks. The Full Genomes results for GailT's paternal lineage kit are complete (MDKA: Johannes Crauss b. 4 Nov 1751, Ronshausen, Hesse, Germany).

    1. The kit was tested via FTDNA to U152+ L2+ L20-. The FGS test confirms it is also Z49- Z367-.
    2. The kit shares 21885515 (C>T) with "1000 Genomes Project" sample HG00152 (L2+ Z49- Z367-) from Great Britain.
    3. 21885515 (C>T) was also found derived in four "Genome of the Netherlands" samples.
    4. 21885515 (C>T) was also found in 49 Sardinian samples from Francalacci et al. 2013, but they were all Z192+ which is a separate branch from L2 altogether. This means the mutation either happened two different times in two different groups or there is a problem with the Francalacci data.
    5. The kit also shares the following SNP with three unpublished L2+ Z49- Z367- British genomes: 13685121 (C>T). This SNP is also derived in four "Genome of the Netherlands" samples.
    6. Based on those unpublished British genomes, 13685121 (C>T) is one level down from L2 but one level up from 21885515 (C>T)

    So, congratulations to GailT for making this previously L2* branch official!
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 10-18-2013 at 03:39 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
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    Congratulations!
    Unfortunately my genetic distance from Gailt is 21/37 .. I do not know whether i have these SNPs ..
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessio B. Bedini View Post
    Congratulations!
    Unfortunately my genetic distance from Gailt is 21/37 .. I do not know whether i have these SNPs ..
    Alessio, I am quite a distance from the Clauss STRs as well 25/67, but the 13685121 group may be as frequent as Z367 and Z49 and also very old, so we never know.

    I still suspect we will find a distinct group south of the Alps as well.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #4
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    I hope that your suspect is truth soon ..
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

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    And here is a list of the high confidence "private" SNPs they found in my L2 sample, at the 99% and 95% confidence level. Assuming 1 SNP per 3 generations and 30 years per generation, this would give an age of 4860 years.


    6943194 C->A FG621+ 99% Genuine = 35
    7165871 A->G FG622+
    14034324 G->A FG633+
    14118649 T->C FG634+
    14250126 G->A FG635+
    14397558 G->T FG636+
    14406860 C->G FG637+
    14641775 T->C FG638+
    14945091 T->C FG639+
    14978697 T->C FG640+
    15264448 C->G FG641+
    15286148 C->A FG642+
    15645359 G->C FG643+
    15760679 A->T FG644+
    15895734 A->G FG645+
    16003174 G->A FG646+
    16234333 T->G FG647+
    16982219 G->A FG648+
    17078688 G->A FG649+
    17164397 G->A FG650+
    17239012 G->A FG651+
    17285400 A->T FG652+
    18631512 G->A FG653+
    19329986 A->T FG654+
    19385930 T->G FG655+
    19542618 A->G FG656+
    21259715 C->T FG658+
    21369596 G->A FG659+
    21536579 A->G FG660+
    21696427 T->C FG661+
    22065095 T->C FG662+
    22572293 T->C FG663+
    23118896 A->G FG664+
    28694569 C->T FG667+
    28722590 A->G FG668+

    2945130 A->T FG615+ * 95% Genuine = 19
    3389443 C->G FG616+ *
    3495582 A->T FG617+ *
    4192020 C->G FG618+ *
    4356141 C->T FG619+ *
    4572235 T->C FG620+ *
    7521830 C->T FG623+ *
    7740741 C->T FG624+ *
    8149773 A->T FG625+ *
    8348808 C->G FG626+ *
    8597270 A->C FG627+ *
    9524177 T->C FG628+ *
    13595148 G->T FG629+ *
    13613633 A->C FG630+ *
    13685121 C->T FG631+ *
    13824685 T->A FG632+ *
    20358892 G->A FG657+ *
    23745653 T->C FG665+ *
    23777440 T->A FG666+ *

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  10. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Alessio, I am quite a distance from the Clauss STRs as well 25/67, but the 13685121 group may be as frequent as Z367 and Z49 and also very old, so we never know.

    I still suspect we will find a distinct group south of the Alps as well.
    Are you recognizing that not all R-L2 came from North to Italy and that it was ancient also in Italy, which has other more ancient samples of R-U152?

  11. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Some exciting news for L2* folks. The Full Genomes results for GailT's paternal lineage kit are complete (MDKA: Johannes Crauss b. 4 Nov 1751, Ronshausen, Hesse, Germany).

    1. The kit was tested via FTDNA to U152+ L2+ L20-. The FGS test confirms it is also Z49- Z367-.
    2. The kit shares 21885515 (C>T) with "1000 Genomes Project" sample HG00152 (L2+ Z49- Z367-) from Great Britain.
    3. 21885515 (C>T) was also found derived in four "Genome of the Netherlands" samples.
    4. 21885515 (C>T) was also found in 49 Sardinian samples from Francalacci et al. 2013, but they were all Z192+ which is a separate branch from L2 altogether. This means the mutation either happened two different times in two different groups or there is a problem with the Francalacci data.
    5. The kit also shares the following SNP with three unpublished L2+ Z49- Z367- British genomes: 13685121 (C>T). This SNP is also derived in four "Genome of the Netherlands" samples.
    6. Based on those unpublished British genomes, 13685121 (C>T) is one level down from L2 but one level up from 21885515 (C>T)

    So, congratulations to GailT for making this previously L2* branch official!
    Hello Richard,
    First of all thanks for your work that helps all of us in understanding the spread of R- U152 .
    it seems to me very unlikely that the same mutation occurred in 2 separate branches and at a time so close. For this reason I ask you if the 5 samples of Z192 + "1000 Genomes Project" (2 Mexicans and 3 Toscani) themselves contain 21885515 (C > T). If not, my doubts on the results of Francalacci can only increase .
    With regard to the possibility that there is a distinct group under the Alps , I think it is possible (as you know, we are patiently awaiting our results) , maybe people who have contributed in some form to the formation of the Ligurian. I also believe possible that some Roman Gens would be a carrier of R- L2. Some historians clues lead me to suppose that. Of course, even with the help of a little imagination . I would not mind descend from the Gens Julia , Cornelia , Claudia ... (The long wait is playing tricks on me)

  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Alessio B. Bedini View Post
    Congratulations!
    Unfortunately my genetic distance from Gailt is 21/37 .. I do not know whether i have these SNPs ..
    You have a GD from Gail of 21 out 37 markers, i.e. a MRCA 3800ya. As Gail calculated by private SNPs an ancientness of 4800 y, you should descend from a common ancestor 1000 y more recent, then you should have many private SNPs in common with Gail.
    Of course I don't mind my three golden points: mutations around the modal, convergence to the modal as time passes, sometime a mutation goes for the tangent. Anyway a FGS could be an interesting verification of these theories.

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  14. #9
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    Unfortunately the primers for 13685121 will be nearly impossible to develop based on where it is located on the Y-chromosome. However, all L2 samples who were derived 13685121 (including the Crauss kit) also have the deletion 9020396 (TAGA/-). It is found outside of U152 as well, but rarely, so I think it can be used as a proxy for 13685121 until full genome testing becomes the norm. Working primers have already been tested for 9020396, so the detals will be passed along to FTDNA once they start accepting that kind of information again.

    Also, the Crauss kit shares 28722590 (A/G) [aka FG668] with HG00152, but it was not found in the GoNL samples. This means that it is one level down from 21885515 (C/T) and two levels down from 13685121 (C/T) and 9020396 (TAGA/-).

    For clarity on the hierarchy:

    Level 1: U152
    Level 2: |_____L2
    Level 3: ...........|_____13685121 (C/T), 9020396 (TAGA/-)
    Level 4: ......................|_____21885515 (C/T)
    Level 5: .................................|_____28722590 (A/G) [aka FG668]
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  16. #10
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    Can you share with us who developed the primers you mention as you infer it was not FTDNA? Thanks

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