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Thread: About PIE craddle. Why the anatolian theory is insane.

  1. #151
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    Ancient presence of a horse in the Middle East I would consider trivial, but their absence I consider abnormal.
    I think horses will be found, perhaps it is a shortage of archaeologists and some wild horses will be found there.
    I read information about ancient drawing horses in that region, but this information may be unreliable.

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    Ancient presence of a horse in the Middle East I would consider trivial, but their absence I consider abnormal.
    I think horses will be found, perhaps it is a shortage of archaeologists and some wild horses will be found there.
    I read information about ancient drawing horses in that region, but this information may be unreliable.
    Horses ran wild all over the world at the end of the Ice Age, Britain included, but died out.

    Ice Age Horses May Have Been Killed Off by Humans

    Bone engraved with a horse

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    It is interesting that donkeys of either Middle Eastern, or African origin, were domesticated before the horse and were used for riding. Perhaps the word equus could mean an ass(Equus asinus) in proto-IE, moreover, not in all IE lang-s, as I know, there are reflexes of "ekwos" ?
    PIE *loaned* a word for donkey from a Middle-Eastern language [1].


    [1] http://loanwords.prehistoricmap.com/...vocabulary.pdf

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  7. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    It is interesting that donkeys of either Middle Eastern, or African origin, were domesticated before the horse and were used for riding. Perhaps the word equus could mean an ass(Equus asinus) in proto-IE, moreover, not in all IE lang-s, as I know, there are reflexes of "ekwos" ?
    AIH Asiatic donkeys have never been domesticated

    Onager

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The Asiatic wild ass is larger than African wild ass at about 290 kg (640 lb) and 2.1 m (6.9 ft) (head-body length). They are reddish-brown or yellowish-brown in color and have broad dorsal stripe on the middle of the back. Unlike most horses and donkeys, onagers have never been domesticated

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  9. #155
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    No, I still can not accept the argument of horse.
    Bones of the horse were found at 7th millenium BC in Northern Iraq.
    Clay statuettes of horses in the Khalaf culture. The bones of a domesticated horse at 3d millenim BC at the territory of Elam and at the end of 4 millenium BC in Transcaucasia.
    It was a rare but not exotic animal for this region (such as the Giraffe in Norway).
    Last edited by Ral; 07-12-2018 at 08:36 PM.

  10. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    You seem to be in line with the best specialist in the world:
    https://archive.org/stream/Encyclope.../n243/mode/2up
    Are you referring to this by Mallory?
    "Old Indic offers the earliest attestations of
    *pelh - in the Vedas and other early Indic literature, the
    contextual analysis of which suggests that the OInd pur
    consisted of one or several concentric ramparts of round or
    oval plan; it might be built of mud or stone (but not brick),
    and included a combustible component (gate, wickerwork,
    prickly shrubs); enclosed wooden sheds as shelters; was
    stocked with provisions for man and beast; was occupied in
    times of danger; and probably required repair after the rainy
    season. Earlier suggestions that the pur indicated the citadels
    of the Harappan culture which were destroyed by the Indo-
    Aryans hold little currency today as the Vedic and other
    descriptions make a very poor fit with the archaeological
    evidence for massive rectangular brick citadels and all the
    other aspects of urbanism attendant in the Indus citadels. It
    has even been suggested that the Old Indie descriptions are
    accommodated far better by the evidence of Bronze Age forts
    in Central Asia, an area which has been regarded as the staging
    area for later Indo- Aryan movements to the south."

    Tripuri, Tripolis, Tarabulus, Trypillia all refer to three adjoined settlements, but I have not seen the term used for three concentric ramparts.

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  12. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    No, I still can not accept the argument of horse.
    Bones of the horse were found at 7th millenium BC in Northern Iraq.
    Clay statuettes of horses in the Khalaf culture. The bones of a domesticated horse at 3d millenim BC at the territory of Elam and at the end of 4 millenium BC in Transcaucasia.
    It was a rare but not exotic animal for this region (such as the Giraffe in Norway).
    The modern domesticated horse lineage derives from Bronze Age Eastern Europe. Modern horses in the Near East belong to this lineage. Earlier horses that were found in the Near East are now extinct.

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  14. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    No, I still can not accept the argument of horse.
    Got a funny feeling this is just one of a very long list of arguments you 'can not accept' : )

    And yes you're right, giraffes aren't unknown in Norway zoos.

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  16. #159
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    I think the argument here is that presence or absence of a root word for horse is probably not very good evidence itself for or against a south of Caucasus origin, as even if wild horses were only 1/300 of hunted animals found in Neolithic zone south of Caucasus in NE Anatolia, that's still probably frequent enough to have a unique word for them.

    As seems fairly likely to be the case - "While horse bones have been identified in Neolithic sites in central Turkey, all equids together totaled less than 3% of the animal bones. Within this three percent, horses were less than 10%, with 90% or more of the equids represented by onagers (Equus hemionus) or another ass-like equid that later became extinct, Equus hydruntinus." (which makes good sense, since not domesticated equids would have been hunted and the lions share of bones should be from domesticates).

    That's Catalhoyuk 7500 BC to 5000 BC and see - https://www.researchgate.net/publica...alhoyuk_Turkey for more information. "More unusual, however, is the identification of a large horse, apparently Equus caballus ferus, the wild ancestor of the domestic horse. Wild horses were thought to be locally extinct in Anatolia in the Neolithic period and domesticates introduced later, but the secure identification of wild horse at Catalhoyuk, as well as at the nearby Neolithic site of Asikli, requires a revision of accepted ideas about its former geographical distribution. Both wild asses and horses were probably hunted on the steppe grasslands near the site, and the large numbers of older animals represented suggests that they made easier prey than younger ones".

    As a further ref see: OLQamrY.png

    (from https://www.academia.edu/1578191/Ani..._Ancient_World. Related - https://archaeology.sites.unc.edu/ho...amin-arbuckle/ could be an interesting project; mention of ancient dna)

    So references to a "virtual absence" of horses by Mallory (as published in 1989 I believe?), possibly refer to the lack of any kind of the *intensively* horse exploiting culture that can be reconstructed for at least PIE (and possibly proto-Indo-Anatolian as well?), and so impossible that that specific culture could have developed there, rather than necessarily complete absence of the species, and so no word for horse in languages of people there.

  17. #160
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    Thus, Mallory's conclusion is based on incorrect information.

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