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Thread: চেহারাمنهنचेहराముఖంمخமுகம்چہرہਚਿਹਰਾ

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    Incorrect! Please be honest regarding these assertions. This model is not a 3-way model but rather a 2ish-way as AASI is ghost and defined precisely as (Indus_Periphery MINUS Iran_N). So what exactly is being fitted? It is equivalent to a model with chimpanzee and Neanderthal and a ghost population described as the non-chimpanzee....

    And who said there is some cross-Punjabi look? Thousands of years of endogamy of different groups inside a region will mean there is no super-cross-Punjabi look. BUT you cannot claim that a Punjabi SC and Bengali SC are somehow related (beyond OOA continuity) based on how some calculator lacking any of the necessary aDNA and still based off of proper West-Eurasian-found aDNA. You are somehow getting triggered off of some garbage online fights you had with Pashtuns in regards to "we be diverse looking". You need to train your guns in the opposite direction here, as in not towards a group NW of you but far much further SE of you. So come at me correctly. I have let know both MDL and you that you guys stand out like a sore thumb among average Bengalis due to your overall phenotype. Of course neither of you are Punjabi SC, but I wanted to clarify the point anyway. A Punjabi SC stands out just as much if not more amongst Bengali SC's. It is up to you to prove that Punjabi SC and Bengali SC are actually related beyond OOA continuity. And I have a legitimate scientifically based objection towards using a calculator that is primarily using aDNA from Zagros mountains in 7000BC, aDNA from Bronze Age Steppe and doing a subtraction on individuals deemed Indus Periphery from the Zagros folks to say that is AASI.
    Be honest? Come on man. We do have at least a decent idea that AASI represents the original hunter gatherers of South Asia while Indus Periphery isn't an actual ancestral population. It represents the mixed Iran N + West Siberian N + AASI ancestry of the SIS BA samples.

    In addition, we know that the majority of AASI (ghost or not) the paper calculated for modern samples isn't obtained from Indus Periphery - Iran N. If you go back to the original paper, VM Narasimhan and the Reich team actually proxied the majority of AASI ancestry for South Asians using the Onge. The supplementary spreadsheet shows this. The AASI in Indus Periphery is just the leftover AASI ancestry they couldn't pull out because the lack of a pure enough AASI population to do so (Swat samples being too mixed).

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581

    Since nMonte isn't using an actual Indus Periphery component but rather the SIS BA, Gonur, BMAC, etc. samples, what is being fitted is how much modern South Asians fit to these ancients. In other words, how much SIS BA3, Sintashta, Parkhai, West Siberian, N, etc. our autosomal ancestry is drawn to. Then, using the Iran N, AASI and Steppe breakdown provided for these ancients (see modeling from paper below), we can estimate how much Iran N, AASI and Steppe us moderns score. Obviously, the lower the distance, the better the fit while taking into account overfitting if some of the populations being used are unrealistic.

    Screen Shot 2018-05-10 at 5.56.04 AM.png
    Screen Shot 2018-05-10 at 5.53.18 AM.png

    Well, to me, your point about Punjabi dalits or some SC/ST or SC/ST looking vastly different from Bangladeshi SC/ST and I'm presuming also South Indian mid-castes would suggest there is some type of common "Punjabi" look that spans the genetic cline of dalits to biradaris. Otherwise, how could both an average Jatt Sikh, Hindu Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Dalit all look "Punjabi?" Also, I'm not saying Punjabi SC And Bengali SC are historically related. What I am suggesting is they are at least somewhat autosomally similar (using a variety of admixture calcs or genetic modeling such as nMonte) and because of that similarity, there may be some phenotype overlap. I don't think that's a crazy jump in logic since there are definitely South Asians of different ethnic origins that can pass throughout the subcontinent from Punjab to Bangladesh to Gujarat and Tamil Nadu. Now, of course there are distinct regional phenotypes that are more common in certain areas but to me that is based on the cline of autosomal ancestry in South Asia.

    Also, I've never had "garbage online fights" with Pashtuns regarding Punjabi phenotype. Nor have I ever been on the forum MDL referred to and the only proper interaction I've had with Pashtuns has been anthrogenica regarding autosomal DNA and haplogroups (I've had some minor genetic discussion with some Afghans on scape before). Anyways, I've been on anthro forums for awhile (and browsed quite a few) but it's a bit presumptuous to suggest I've actually had written interactions about us being "diverse looking." My observations are based on what I've read and the people I've come across in my personal life. In fact, anthroforums wise, it's actually other South Asians who have made more condescending posts about how my own ethnic group is supposed to "look." That just happens to rub me the wrong way. It's pretty infuriating to have others suggest you or your family aren't typical. In the end, any of my heated discussions were with my fellow South Asians.

    If you say a Punjabi SC stands out among Bengali SC, that's fine. I'm not interested in going any further into deep pseudoscience phenotype discussions. Also, what do you want me to prove exactly regarding the relation between Punjabi SC And Bengali SC? That they can be modeled with tights fits using the same exact AASI related South Asian hunter gatherer population (assuming we get actual almost pure AASI ancient samples)? I'm presuming you desire this because you think the potential similar fits in nMonte with SIS BA3 and other ancients aren't accurate enough and based on a migration model you think is false or flawed (not just Steppe but Iran N from the Zagros too)?

    Because, I'm not sure your "scientific based objection" would hold up against Narasimhan and the Reich lab? What about haplogroup data? For example, my y-DNA L1a2 and bmoney's L1a1 have had the oldest L1 sample found not too far from the Zagros in the Caucasus. The BMAC samples were also full of L1a, J2, etc. and even some common "West Asian" mt-DNA including my own. To me, it's not exactly a stretch to suggest the Neolithic famers of South Asia migrated from around these areas. That kind of data is also the missing piece in potential Steppe migrations (R1a1a-L657 right?). Not just the lack of Steppe or minor Steppe in the Swat samples.

    Again, the AASI modeling for moderns in the Narasimhan paper is based primairly on Onge. I'd presume the AASI estimates for SIS BA3, SIS BA2, Gonur, etc. are as well. Because, it's been 9 years since the original Reich paper and Onge are still the closest living or ancient population we have to proxy AASI. Personally, I think if geneticists could model Paniya very accurately, a subtraction model with them would work better than just straight up using Onge since they're too genetically diverged from the original AASI population of South Asia.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 07-18-2018 at 09:23 AM.
    I4285 I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan U7a3 L1a
    I5604 I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan K1a1 L1a
    I6667 I6667 1497-1413 calBCE (317020 BP, PSUAMS-2998) Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2a
    I6669 I6669 3082-2909 calBCE (436525 BP, PSUAMS-2950) Parkhai_EN Parkhai_EN Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2
    I4899 I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan R0 J

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    AASI levels certainly correlate with phenotype at the group level, that's not even worth arguing.

    Call it the South Asian branch of ENA and not AASI if you want, but AASI is still a better label IMO as it is barely found outside South Asia and peaks in Southern India. There might be a link to ANE as well via significant ancient Siberian-like ancestry as part of high-AASI populations today.

    Theres plenty in the Narasimhan paper:

    - AASI split from other East Eurasians the same time East Asians, Onge and Australian Aboriginals split from each other
    Again who is AASI? If I ask you who is Iran Neolithic you have remains from Zagros in 7000bc. If I ask you Indus periphery, you have some folks that look like carrying Indian ancestry, but at least you have some remains to say here be InPe. But who is AASI?

    - All South Asian ancestry prior to Iran_N arrival was from this one branch formed from a single migration
    Who said Iran_N actually every arrived? Yes there is a single migration. It is called OOA. The entire south Asia is consisting of a continuity belt of the OOA that at the upper level is continuous to the East and West Eurasian nodes. You can say Iran_N is descendant of easternmost West Eurasian. But if considering the split of OOA, then it isn't a West and then East+Onge+AASI+Australian. It would be more like OOA splits into Basal and rest of OOA somewhere in Arabia. Then somewhere by Iran coast there is a northbound break, said group is onset of West Eurasian group. The rest of crew continuing along coastline enter Indian subcontinent. Just like how Basal split off and West split off, in subcontinent you should have tons of viable splits. This is upstream of the split of Onge+ East Asian+ Australian. These are not AASI substructure splits as no such thing as AASI. The group that continues on into Southeast Asia has the relevant splitting to east Asians and native Americans and Onge and Australians etc. Meanwhile in subcontinent you have highly divergent branches of OOA in of itself spread across vast distances so able to isolate. So main source of phenotype difference between a Punjabi SC and Tamil SC is attributable to fact that former is from Punjab Hunter Gatherers and latter from Tamil Nadu Hunter Gatherers, two populationad differentiated directly under OOA for all practical purposes. If I were to bullet out this tree, it would be
    OOA children branches:
    1) Basal Eurasian
    2) West Eurasian
    3) Sindh Hunter Gatherers
    4) Kashmir Hunter Gatherers
    5) Kerala Hunter Gatherers
    6) Orissa Hunter Gatherers
    7) Gangetic Hunter Gatherers
    8) Onge
    9) East Eurasian

  4. #103
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    I thought you were joking at first with these PHG or BHG.
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  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    Ah! yeah I agree,he looks Kashmiri to me as well than punjabi, esp. the nose?
    I wrote about a different guy, I think he was wearing a black hoodie.
    Never said he looks chechan, it was toward rediff post about kashmiri dude having chechan.
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    They seriously used a modern population Onge to still be used into their definition of a supposed real ancestral component for subcontinent regarding which they make vast sweeping proclamations? Regardless of if they use Onge or Paniya to refine their AASI definition, fact that a modern population is being used just weakens the position even more and lends itself to looking for a migrationist model from the onset.

    And yes I mentioned it earlier that the movement from Zagros is false. It is just OOA continuity which makes it look like Indus periphery is Iran_N plus something when Indus periphery is just Indus periphery. Is there real iran_n in subcontinent? Yea the Parsees and some Shia families have it.

    Regarding the Bengali SC as opposed to Punjabi SC or any communities of subcontinent at the end of the day I want real meaningful models of population history and structure. It will also help understand how exactly which phenotypes are getting pooled into which endogamous groups. Because yes different phenotype core ranges define endogamous groups, why would they not? But when groups that supposedly overlap genetically have very distinct phenotype ranges from each other, something is jacked up about said model that it cannot identify what a layperson on street could tell you from looking at a person. That means more so than not that there is a deeply diverged region specific ancestry. The Indian subcontinent is huge. From Tamil Nadu a person in Punjab is half the distance to Kazakhstan, why there would not be a core regional ancestral stock? You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always wished to prove a distance from, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?
    Anyway my mode of thinking still distinguishes a Punjabi biradari from a Punjabi SC at the end of the day. Biradari might be 60% PHG while Punjab SC is over 90% PHG. Rest of biradari would be steppe and Iran_N and maybe as an upper caste than the SC you might have also assimilated other diverged south Asian ancestral clusters so biradari might show Gangetic hunter gatherer or Kashmiri etc. What it would also resolve is the false equivalence of the Punjabi SC with a Bengali SC or Andhra SC. I have maintained that each region's respective SC is likely the most indigenous to said region.
    I'm not looking for Indian place names to components. Yes perhaps a 9000 B.C. Punjab hunter gatherer would plot at 80% Iran_N and 20% Onge while a Tamil hunter gatherer from 9000 BC is some other percentage breakdown. Btw is that something that is done or makes sense doing backwards in time? Because a 9000 BC based aDNA cluster find would predate the 7000bc Iran_N folks. I guess everything gets done seeing as Onge is used to define AASI which then went into studying and classifying the Swat valley samples.

    But either way at such a point it will really stop making sense to continue using Iran_N or AASI as you have older aDNA components from subcontinent. It will still make sense to use Iran_N to capture excess that has come in the historical times (most of it will or should get eaten along with AASI into these HG categories with Indian region names).

    If a remain from anywhere in particular NW part shows up pre 7000bc and is very AASI like, as in unable to capture the latent West Eurasian aspect like how Iran_N is supposed to do for now, then I will consider my proposition as having been invalidated.
    Last edited by redifflal; 07-18-2018 at 10:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    I thought you were joking at first with these PHG or BHG.
    Nope, I've been alluding to this kind of stuff for a while. I went along with the ANI ASI constructs before the Narasimhan paper. After that paper and way it keeps stretching into migrationist models I realized this stuff is not going to stop. ASI will shift to AASI. Basically a fraction of Indian subcontinent area and historical numbers gets to have a population history structures explained by
    1) WHG
    2) EHG
    3) SHG
    4) CHG
    5) ANE
    6) Anatolia N
    7) Levant N
    8) Steppe emba
    9) Steppe mlba
    And so on and so on. But suggesting that the OOA population had real components intermediate from West and East Eurasians in form of various isolated hunter gatherer groups over distances within the subcontinent is a laughable proposition?
    Last edited by redifflal; 07-18-2018 at 10:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    Yes and no. No regarding region-specific "AASI". AASI is IP-Iran_N.
    The paper models AASI using the Onge. IP-Iran_N is the leftover AASI not captured by Onge.

    Follow me down this hypothetical path. What if you had aDNA from 9000BC from Punjab region and Bengal region that we will label PHG and BHG respectively. Let us say in the Iran_N/Steppe/AASI model a Punjabi SC scored 35% AASI, 55% Iran_N and 10% Steppe. Likewise a Bengali SC scored 50% AASI, 45% Iran_N and 5% Steppe. So far generally agreeable on such numbers? Now let us model with PHG and BHG added to the mix and we take AASI out, leave Iran_N and Steppe in still, so now we have a 4-way model. My assertion is that Punjabi SC will be 90% PHG, 7% Iran_N, 3% Steppe and 0% BHG. And on other hand, the Bengali SC will be 0% PHG, 4% Iran_N, 1% Steppe and 95% BHG. If I were to tabulate this out, it would look like following. I have chosen the old-model numbers with what I think is likely the case as of now, but what I want to be noted is how and what components get "eaten" into the nodes in the new hypothetical model...
    I do follow your model. I just disagree with it until we have data showing that some supposed PHG and BHG existed and were notably distinct, I don't see why we should even consider such a hypothetical. However, I'm open to it. I wrote a paper back in university for my anthropology course arguing that there might have been somewhat diverged ASI populations in South Asia (back when I associated ASI with what we now refer to as AASI) and that we just needed pure ancient AASI data to verify it.

    I would ask: How do we even know what kind of AASI populations lived back then or what areas in South Asia were populated and others sparsely so? Were these hypothetical populations even that diverged or distinct from one another to separate into PHG or BHG? It's a lot of conjecture. Those AASI differences are also too significant for populations that supposedly cluster together. Maybe poi can model a Bengali SC and one of the most "AASI" shifted PJL using nMonte? That would give a clearer picture.

    More like it proves I didn't cherrypick.
    Doesn't that prove my point though? If you don't cherrypick, there is overlap between a dalit/ST/SC Punjabi and Bangladeshi SC? Anyways, I'm finished with the phenotype discussion.


    They are defined from the Mesolithic aDNA found in modern-day area known as Scandinavia. Anyway, what I don't understand is how the population history of a historically 1/10th numbers-wise populated Europe or even all of Western Eurasia can have so many differentiated ancient components to explain it like WHG, SHG, EHG, CHG, Steppe_EMBA, Steppe_MLBA, Iran_N, Anatolia_N, Basal Eurasian, Natufian_N, Levant_N, ANE, etc etc while folks can sit there and say that Indian population can be explained by Iran_N, Steppe and a ghost AASI? And you really asked if PHG or BHG or KHG are AASI regional variants?
    A lot of it has to do with how much more difficulty geneticists have in collecting ancient DNA from South Asia whether it is due to lack of preservation due to weather or politically motivated resistance from the Indian government. The more ancient DNA we have, the more types of modeling we can have. Also, a lot of those ancient components overlap in similarity. They just some differentiation in exact breakdowns. Correct me if I'm wrong but EHG is like WHG + West Siberian N/ANE? Steppe_EMBA and Steppe_MLBA have some similarity but are based on different ancients. Basal Eurasian is a parent "West Eurasian" component that a lot of these ancient components are derived from? ANE is applicable to South Asia too. The recent Narasimhan paper used the term West Siberian N instead? Also, I believe at one point some genetics bloggers were modeling South Asians with CHG rather than Iran N? Anyways, for South Asia, you can model individuals using components like WHG/EHG, or Steppe_MLBA/Steppe_EMBA, Iran N, ANE, Anatolia_N. In fact, some GEDMatch calculators have in the past (WHG, EHG, CHG, Iran_N, Anatolia_N, ANE, etc.) . It's just with nMonte, the best fits are with Steppe_MLBA, Sintashta, Saka, West Siberian N, Iran_N based pops (SIS BA, Parkhai, etc.) while AASI is extrapolated from primarily SIS BA 3 and to a lesser extent SIS BA2 with Onge occasionally accounting for extra AASI.

    Can't unwrap from the constructed West-Eurasian-non-West-Eurasian model it seems like. What is distance from Punjab to tip of Sri Lanka? It is equal to distance from Punjab to Kazakhstan. Mercator map projections are doing a number on us it seems. We are talking prior to onset of agriculture and civilization, it isn't like India or subcontinent is some magical nation that exists always into paleolithic eternity. What is "regional" (as opposed to continental? national? what?) about a PHG/BHG/KHG/etc construct? Distances are considerable. Why there cannot be regionally isolated independent hunter gatherer populations across subcontinent? Also I never claimed that the regional isolation remains into modern populations. Matter of fact I made it a point to state that upper caste folks are likely to be bridges of the various isolated populations. Just like for Europeans nobody said that modern day Norwegians are 100% SHG and modern day Britons are 100% WHG and modern day Russians are 100% ANE. Nope, big mashup going on everywhere and there can always be groups stronger in some ancient component on the other side geographically or not exactly contiguous from its direction of spread. So why a modern day TamBrahm cannot be explained as 75% Gangetic Hunter Gatherer 20% Tamil Hunter Gatherer 5% Steppe or something?
    What do you want exactly? Do you just want ancient names specific to South Asia and not based on migration-related pops such as Iran_N and Steppe? What would Gangetic Hunter Gatherer entail? A Mix of Iran N and AASI? Just predominately Iran N while Tamil Hunter Gatherer is close to 100% AASI? Or do you want ancient South Asian modeling that separates South Asia entirely from the rest of Eurasia? So, we can see where a Jatt Sikh or Punjabi Khatri stands in comparison to a SC or dalit Punjabi based on some hypothetical PHG population with Iran_N, Steppe, etc. making the difference?

    Because, I don't think South Asians are some special distinct group with ancestry entirely separate from the rest of Eurasia. It's really only AASI that makes us distinct and even that still falls on the ENA branch with East Eurasia.

    I am asking that you, and by you, I mean a generic you and I and all of us, that why would you feel that wham open and shut case all work that needed to be done is done when we are still haggling around with garbage 2.5-way models? Also why should I be content in some model with nodes so far from home and not only that even the little bit of aDNA found (which in my opinion is very very far removed for the core population history of Bengalis and by that I am referring to the Bengali SCs) is still used as a derived population of something outside and that is used to explain what may have been the characteristic of the entire massive region inside?
    Personally, with the lack of focus on South Asian genetics in the grand scheme of global genetic research, I'm happy we even have the current models and will patiently wait for revised models to come out if further relevant DNA is discovered. The current models certainly aren't garbage to me.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 07-18-2018 at 10:26 AM.
    I4285 I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan U7a3 L1a
    I5604 I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan K1a1 L1a
    I6667 I6667 1497-1413 calBCE (317020 BP, PSUAMS-2998) Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2a
    I6669 I6669 3082-2909 calBCE (436525 BP, PSUAMS-2950) Parkhai_EN Parkhai_EN Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2
    I4899 I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan R0 J

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  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    And so on and so on. But suggesting that the OOA population had real components intermediate from West and East Eurasians in form of various isolated hunter gatherer groups over distances within the subcontinent is a laughable proposition.
    Do you really think South Asians are that distinct and separate from the rest of Eurasia? To the point where we shouldn't be modeled using ancients that are perfectly fine for the rest of West Eurasia, Central Eurasia and East Eurasia? This anti-migration viewpoint makes no sense to me because I see Steppe ancestry and ANE ancestry in Europe as migrationist as well with both coming from Central Eurasia. Europeans just have a much heavier dosage of it (Steppe). ANE is highest in Amerindians, Siberians and Central Asians but is found throughout West Eurasia (including Europe) and South Eurasia as well.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 07-18-2018 at 10:57 AM.
    I4285 I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan U7a3 L1a
    I5604 I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan K1a1 L1a
    I6667 I6667 1497-1413 calBCE (317020 BP, PSUAMS-2998) Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2a
    I6669 I6669 3082-2909 calBCE (436525 BP, PSUAMS-2950) Parkhai_EN Parkhai_EN Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2
    I4899 I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan R0 J

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    They seriously used a modern population Onge to still be used into their definition of a supposed real ancestral component for subcontinent regarding which they make vast sweeping proclamations? Regardless of if they use Onge or Paniya to refine their AASI definition, fact that a modern population is being used just weakens the position even more and lends itself to looking for a migrationist model from the onset.

    And yes I mentioned it earlier that the movement from Zagros is false. It is just OOA continuity which makes it look like Indus periphery is Iran_N plus something when Indus periphery is just Indus periphery. Is there real iran_n in subcontinent? Yea the Parsees and some Shia families have it.

    Regarding the Bengali SC as opposed to Punjabi SC or any communities of subcontinent at the end of the day I want real meaningful models of population history and structure. It will also help understand how exactly which phenotypes are getting pooled into which endogamous groups. Because yes different phenotype core ranges define endogamous groups, why would they not? But when groups that supposedly overlap genetically have very distinct phenotype ranges from each other, something is jacked up about said model that it cannot identify what a layperson on street could tell you from looking at a person. That means more so than not that there is a deeply diverged region specific ancestry. The Indian subcontinent is huge. From Tamil Nadu a person in Punjab is half the distance to Kazakhstan, why there would not be a core regional ancestral stock? You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?
    I just posted the Narasimhan quote showing that when the AA people arrived, they mixed with an AASI population with barely any Iran_N ancestry, with the only conclusion being that Iran_N was not present or established in Eastern India or Southern India at that time and only AASI was. The AA migration was relatively recent too at 5kya making the admixture event between Iran_N and AASI (outside NW South Asia) later than the formation of the Maikop culture

    Iran_N is on a different branch of humanity and originated in the Zagros, here is the latest diagram from Lazaridis:

    Attachment 24715

    I don't know why youre struggling to deal with the fact that AASI is a distinct unit and that studying AASI diversity does not answer the question you ask instead of concepts like Punjab Hunter-Gatherer with no basis in genetics and based on your impression of phenotypes

    Juang (an Austroasiatic speaking group in India with low West Eurasian-relatedness),
    418 and show that it fits when the ASI have ~27% Iranian agriculturalist-related ancestry and the
    419 Juang also harbor ancestry from an AASI population without Iranian admixture (Fig. 3). This
    420 model is also notable in showing that early Iranian agriculturalists fit without AASI admixture,
    Last edited by bmoney; 07-18-2018 at 11:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    You're just enjoying the current (lack of) resolution in the calcs as is because they are distinguishing you cleanly from a group you traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon, i.e. Punjabi SC. So phenotype differences between a Punjabi SC and Punjabi biradari is captured by these calculators as depending on some autosomal percentage differences right? But then if I tell you by your same logic why the Punjabi SC and Bengali SC don't look similar at all so the calculator is bogus you turn around and say I'm making up pseudo phenotype differences?
    Dude, this is a bit much? A group I have traditionally or subconsciously have always looked down upon? I was born and raised in the West. I didn't even know what a Punjabi SC or Punjabi ST was until I researched anthropology, history and genetics in my early 20's. Many South Asians here aren't really that familiar with the massive diversity of South Asia or intricacies of inter-caste or tribal differences. At one point, I actually even thought Jatt Sikhs were "high caste" even though they're actually more of an avarna tribe or shudras. They just happen to be politically and socially dominant in Indian Punjab.

    To you they may not look similar (as you can apparently pick up very region specific differences) but in the grand scheme of 1 billion+ South Asians, it's probably not a stretch to suggest they're similar. Regardless, phenotype discussion is still pseudoscience. There is no intricate science to it (it's based on stuff like physical observations and measurements of early 20th century anthropologists) and modern individuals of ancestrally diverged populations such as South Asians will show tons of diversity, which is because it is down to the small percentage of our genome that determines phenotype.

    Like bmoney noted, there is probably some correlation with autosomal ancestry and phenotype on a group level but certainly not on an individual level.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 07-18-2018 at 10:53 AM.
    I4285 I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali_Tepe_BA Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan U7a3 L1a
    I5604 I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan K1a1 L1a
    I6667 I6667 1497-1413 calBCE (317020 BP, PSUAMS-2998) Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai_LBA_o Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2a
    I6669 I6669 3082-2909 calBCE (436525 BP, PSUAMS-2950) Parkhai_EN Parkhai_EN Parkhai II Turkmenistan HV2
    I4899 I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan_BA Bustan Uzbekistan R0 J

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