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Thread: চেহারাمنهنचेहराముఖంمخமுகம்چہرہਚਿਹਰਾ

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    I think it is pretty accurate to say there is a difference between the Indic Pakistanis and Iranic ones, or basically Punjabis+Sindhis in 1 side and Pashtuns+Balochis on the other. The Urdu speakers would fall in the Punjabi+Sindhi camp.
    yes there is a difference between average Indic and average iranic Pakistani , but Punjab region is very diverse I would say most non iranic/dardic south asians even many South Indians can pass there, but there are also very distinct Punjabi looks as well.videos from all over Pak Punjab






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  3. #12
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    Also I think the overlap is only there between Sindhis and Gujaratis, and then with Punjabis on both sides. Rajasthanis can go either way but also would note much sparser populated compared to Punjab or Sindh or Gujarat. Most Indians wouldn't pass in Pakistan. Upper-caste Hindus from UP/Bihar kinda look like middle caste Punjabi Hindus, so only they would have some semblance with Pakistani Punjabis. Otherwise OBC from UP (Mulayam Singh Yadav) or SC from UP (Mayawati) only have their counterpart in Pakistan among the Urdu speakers. Upper caste from Deccan or Bengal look like middle caste of UP/Bihar, so we don't pass in Pak at all except maybe among the Urdu speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    Also I think the overlap is only there between Sindhis and Gujaratis, and then with Punjabis on both sides. Rajasthanis can go either way but also would note much sparser populated compared to Punjab or Sindh or Gujarat. Most Indians wouldn't pass in Pakistan. Upper-caste Hindus from UP/Bihar kinda look like middle caste Punjabi Hindus, so only they would have some semblance with Pakistani Punjabis. Otherwise OBC from UP (Mulayam Singh Yadav) or SC from UP (Mayawati) only have their counterpart in Pakistan among the Urdu speakers. Upper caste from Deccan or Bengal look like middle caste of UP/Bihar, so we don't pass in Pak at all except maybe among the Urdu speakers.
    If we are talking about typical than you are right every ethnicity has typical core looks but Pakistan is very diverse and lots of South Asians can pass in Pak Punjab specially central Punjab just because they look south asian. And many urdu speakers are not that dark since many are from elite families of UP
    Last edited by passion; 07-17-2018 at 08:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passion View Post
    yes there is a difference between average Indic and average iranic Pakistani , but Punjab region is very diverse I would say most non iranic/dardic south asians even many South Indians can pass there, but there are also very distinct Punjabi looks as well.videos from all over Pak Punjab





    These are very long videos my man. But anyway phenotype isn't just facial features and complexion but other things too like natural body build type and height etc all of which are part of the total package when you see someone unknown in a subcontinent context and try to figure out what their background is. When you get inside the densely populated part of the subcontinent, it is a very gradual cline of different things like facial features, stockiness in a northwest to southeast axis, and height mainly in a west to east axis (south Indians and even Sri Lankans are taller than Bengalis). Complexion from what I have noted across the board is not correlated to region or caste but by class. Folks of SC background that are urban upper-middle class are same complexions as upper caste. Labor class people are invariably intermediate brown to very dark brown, rare to find fair complected male that drives a rickshaw or auto or tills the soil.

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    I am actually never able to bring myself on board with a lot of migrationist models of subcontinent population structure because of how the really dark brown complected people from Pak Punjab down southeast to Bangladesh and down south towards Sri Lanka in of themselves have a physical cline in heights and body types (heights decrease as you go southeast from Pak Punjab towards Bangladesh, stockiness gives way to lankiness as you go south from Pak Punjab towards Sri Lanka).

    Example this guy below from Pakistan hockey team that's waving at the crowd. He might be very dark in Pakistan but he is a different stock that is unique to only Pak Punjab region. You will have people of that complexion in south and east India sure, but they do not have that build. Likewise there are people of much lighter complexions and sharper features in south and east India, but they too do not have that build and height.


    This kind of a trend in the region-respective dark-complected labor-class primarily SC-derived populations of all these areas tells me that these phenotypes are just part of an OOA continuity because physical build on a cline is far more telling of genetic substructure than something as superficial as complexion which can change in 2-3 months depending on sunlight exposure. Essentially all the lighter skinned south Asians are depigmented versions of their local labor class, nothing migratory or invasive, definitely not from outside. Only way it can be chalked up to outside is something like Majid Khan, otherwise said hockey player's children that don't play hockey are going to be Midichlorian's complexion.
    And if all this is just a continuous OOA stream across southern belt of Asia, then all talk of this distinction between East/South and West Eurasian is baloney when it comes to South Asian population structure, because these dark folks are what unites these two supposedly divided strands (it never divided in subcontinent).

    There is too much focus in studies and discussions that tries to look at upper-castes as mixed progeny of some hyper-depigmented Eurasians with the dark complected folks, but truth is the upper castes are just partially depigmented branches of the dark labor class, maintaining their complexion mainly via lack of sun and partially through endogamy. Also we should note that upper-castes and elites are always far more mobile than the ones tied to the soil. This is why you have legit internal migrations that can explain why a Bengali Brahmin might not exactly look like simply a depigmented Bengali Namashudra, i.e. the Bengali Brahmin may have assimilated a Brahmin clan from Nepal or Karnataka or Punjab. This is why a Brahmin in south looks north-shifted, whereas a Brahmin in Punjab or Kashmir looks southeast-shifted. But for the most part, the regionally distinctive aspect should also be dominant as well. The way the models shifted from ASI to AASI should be an indicator, that as far as south Asia goes, there is no such thing as West/East divide. When more aDNA comes, it will break this AASI further but also recapture the Iran_N and ANE and Steppe even in different ways according to whether one is in Punjab or in Bengal or in Kerala.

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    If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

    Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

    Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

    And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

    Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.
    Last edited by MonkeyDLuffy; 07-17-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

    Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

    Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

    And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

    Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.
    SOME Pjl samples look real Jatt like or Jatt mixed with Kshatriya.

    "distance%=0.8978"
    Punjabi_Lahore:S_Punjabi-4

    Udegram_IA,58.2
    Saidu_Sharif_IA_o,17.4
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,13
    Scottish,7.4
    Narva_Lithuania,1.4
    Scotland_N,1.4
    Yukagir_Tundra,0.8
    Barikot_IA,0.4

    compared to yours

    [1] "distance%=0.8475"

    Punjabi_Ramgarhia

    Udegram_IA,48.2
    Saidu_Sharif_IA_o,35.6
    Nomad_IA,6.2
    Jordanian,4.2
    Nomad_Medieval,3.6
    Scottish,2
    Wusun,0.2

    There is a wide range in PJL samples. You can just say SC only or Munda only.
    nMonte3 current
    Velamas Gujarati_D Muslim_UP Tharus Punjabi_1000genomes
    1.859005 3.210341 4.491247 4.998440 6.040323

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.99 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3:S8728.E1.L1 65.2 Saidu_Sharif_IA_o:S7722.E1.L1 17.8 Udegram_IA:I1985 7.8 Jordanian:S_Jordanian-1 4.4 Barikot_IA:I6545 2.2 Scotland_N:I26602 Narva_Lithuania: Donkalnis6

    mtDNA mutation 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C G8572A G8860A T11368C T16093a T16154C C16519T
    C195T

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    If the kashmiri dude is mixed with chechan, then a good chunk of my family is mixed with slavs.

    Some PJL samples cluster with bengaladeshi SC and even tamils. And they have autro-munda like influence in them. The SC population look like their genetics mostly, in my village I've confused one for Bihari migrant worker. Build depends a lot on nutrition as well and NW has generally been more wealthy in comparison to rest of south asia, hence people were able to grow to their full potential.

    Non punjabi people in Pakistan has this stereotype of Punjabis for being short and very dark. Pashtun forums compare us to Onge or Tamils. It's because the diversity is way stronger in Punjab Pakistan, SC like groups converted more to Islam and Christianity and went with Pakistan during partition. So the non punjabi people there are used to seeing those kinds of Punjabi, and developed this stereotype. They only lose their mind when they see someone like me and sapporo or our families. They say we don't look punjabi but in India this is the first thing we're guessed. My family fits straight from Punjab to afghanistan to pseudo east european blonde. And even if they're not a majority, there are people like them all over Punjab (Lehnda and Charhda Punjab).

    And the most non south asian pops like Haryana jatt look like baniyas or Pan Indians. While Kohistani who contributed to exotic looks of kashmiris, score like 25-30 SI with decent east asian, look like pashtuns or pseudo west asian.

    Now based on muhajirs I met here in Canada, I can easily say they can overlap with my Nairs or bengali friends easily in terms of looks. We've this stereotype in our mind where we associate certain look with certain region, and then lose mind when someone non stereotypical shows up.
    first wait for random mass samples from other Indian cities than compare them to Lahore and you/sopporro and your family wouldnt be guess any thing else where large Pakistani Punjabi diaspora lives like in UK and Norway so i dont know what are you implying. What I find funny is that Indians always try to distance themselves from other Indians and talk about how diverse they are but when it comes to Pakistan country of 200 million is subset of some small time indian state.
    Last edited by passion; 07-17-2018 at 01:35 PM.

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  17. #19
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    Can we keep an eye on the tone of this conversation please.

    Specifically regarding generalisations and finger pointing.

    It's a fair conversation to have, please do not derail with assumptions and personalisations.
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  18. #20
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    My issue with this conversation is that everyone is coming at it from their own personal experience (and dare I say agenda), and therefore arguing probably different points.

    There is a difference between passing in a region versus being typical for that region. There is more diversity in some regions than other regions. There is the issue of self identification with certain ethnicities, whether they're recognised as native or not. There is a difference in the perspectives of outsiders from either side of the phenotype range. And perhaps more importantly, the lack of strict correlation between genotype vs phenotype on an individual level.

    If you want to prove you look atypical for your region, or that your group are different to other groups in the region, or that we're all the same in the subcontinent... Its not going to be difficult to argue that case as some evidence to support your claims will be there.

    Frankly, we don't have very good autosomal representation of most of the subcontinent's 1.5 billion people, there is probably a discordance / cherry picking of photos and personal experience to suit one's claim when we haven't sample the natural variation within a population, and frankly... We like to stereotype.

    Tongue in cheek, but I propose everyone starts off with their one line agendas first.

    Makes it easier to sift through the conversation and work out what you're trying to say.

    Rant over.
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