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Thread: 24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

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    24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

    Here is the original article Surprising aDNA results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y-DNA R).

    According to leaks from the Paleoamerican Odyssey conference, a 24,000-year-old Siberian sample from the Mal'ta archeological site, near Lake Baikal, appears genetically like a mix between modern Europeans, Amerindians and Oceanians. Apparently his Y-DNA belongs to haplogroup R and mtDNA to haplogroup U. Moreover, judging by his pigmentation genetic markers, he was swarthier than Oetzi the Iceman. For more information and updates see here and here.

    If true, these results obviously have major implications for our understanding of how both the New and Old Worlds were peopled. Indeed, if Y-chromosome haplogroup R was present in Siberia 24,000 years ago, then it's likely it was also present in Europe at about the same time, because of long distance migrations by hunter-gatherers across the forests and steppes of Eurasia (see here). Also worth noting is that the vast majority of Paleolithic and Mesolithic mtDNA sequences from Europe belong to mtDNA haplogroup U.

    Could it be, then, that Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans largely belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1?
    I have been saying for so long Y DNA R is Mongliod and originated probably in Siberia but it seemed no one believed me. I also have been saying R got to Caucasians through inter marriage around 20,000ybp developing into R1b somewhere around the Near east and R1a possibly in Europe and R2 around south asia and Iran. This is now prove of Caucasian-Mongolid Y DNA R inter marriage from 24,000ybp!!! I have thought that it would be the Mongliods migrating west into the Near east and Europe but this mtDNa U is prove of Caucasians migrating east and inter marrying with Mongliod Y DNA R. I think the article made a terrible mistake it is not likely R was in Europe 24,000ybp because it was in Siberia are you freaking kidding me. He is trying to connect this with Europe not realizing R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not became widespread and dominate in eastern Europe till Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) just 5,000ybp and R1b1a2a1a L11 did not begin to spread in western Europe with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages till just 4,500-5,000ybp. If anything the mtDNA U I think is connected with the Near east not Europe and might be connected with Native American mtDNA X2. They have their own unique subclade X2g and they also have subclade X2a which has been found in Israeli Druze.

    They also added that he was darker than Otzie(5,300 year old copper age farmer alps Italy) who had brown hair and brown eyes so their probably talking about skin color. If they are his dark skin should not be a surprise because of Native Americans who migrated out of Siberia over 20,000ybp are very dark.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 10-20-2013 at 04:21 AM.

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    If this is true, honestly, I do not see what is so all-fired amazing about it. Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are in Siberia, near Lake Baikal, and pretty far east. How does that translate to "Could it be, then, that Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans largely belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1?"

    First off, we do not know if that alleged 24k year old sample is "R1"; we are only told it belongs to y haplogroup R. Second, Lake Baikal is pretty doggoned far from Europe. I guess finding any very old R anywhere on Planet Earth translates to a faint glimmer of hope for the R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge diehards.

    I guess some R that old so far east is surprising, but whoopee. Siberia isn't in Europe.

    Here is a map that shows where Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are:

    http://donsmaps.com/images26/norther...cimage001b.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If this is true, honestly, I do not see what is so all-fired amazing about it. Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are in Siberia, near Lake Baikal, and pretty far east. How does that translate to "Could it be, then, that Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans largely belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1?"

    First off, we do not know if that alleged 24k year old sample is "R1"; we are only told it belongs to y haplogroup R. Second, Lake Baikal is pretty doggoned far from Europe. I guess finding any very old R anywhere on Planet Earth translates to a faint glimmer of hope for the R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge diehards.

    I guess some R that old so far east is surprising, but whoopee. Siberia isn't in Europe.

    It is kind of cool that is exactly the area Andronovo culture existed(1,800-1,400ybp) with Y DNA R1a1 and mainly mtDNA U(U5a, U2e, U4). It was a back migration of Y DNA R into Siberia after over 20,000 years. rm2 your y DNA is under R and mtDNA under U but just like the Andronovo people unconnected.

    Here is a map that shows where Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are:

    http://donsmaps.com/images26/norther...cimage001b.jpg
    The reason he connected it to Europe is mtDNA U which proves inter marriage with Caucasians. Also that the majority of Palaeolithic and Mesolithic European mtDNA is under U(U5, U5a'b, U8, U2, U2e, U4). But it is just as likely that U came from the Near east. I am not surprised at all they found Y DNA R in Siberia 24,000ybp since it is a Mongliod Y DNA haplogroup. I am sure there is R(XR2, R1) or R1(XR1a, R1b) in Siberia today. People don't realize Y DNA R tells almost nothing about the origin of Europeans and all Caucasians in Europe it did not become widespread and popular till very recently.
    Last edited by AJL; 10-19-2013 at 11:25 PM. Reason: bumping own thread

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    {DO NOT BUMP YOUR OWN THREAD. INSTEAD EDIT YOUR INITIAL POST.}
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 10-19-2013 at 11:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    The reason he connected it to Europe is mtDNA U which proves inter marriage with Caucasians. Also that the majority of Palaeolithic and Mesolithic European mtDNA is under U(U5, U5a'b, U8, U2, U2e, U4). But it is just as likely that U came from the Near east. I am not surprised at all they found Y DNA R in Siberia 24,000ybp since it is a Mongliod Y DNA haplogroup. I am sure there is R(XR2, R1) or R1(XR1a, R1b) in Siberia today. People don't realize Y DNA R tells almost nothing about the origin of Europeans and all Caucasians in Europe it did not become widespread and popular till very recently.
    MtDNA U is all over the place, and that is all we think we know about it: U, not U5 or whatever. Another thing: the application of antiquated racial categories like Caucasian, Mongoloid, etc., to y and mtDNA haplogroups, especially when they turn up in 24k-year-old remains, is a mistake. What was a "Caucasian" 24,000 years ago? What was a "Mongoloid" 24,000 years ago?

    A y-hap R result in Siberia near Lake Baikal proves that there was at least one Paleolithic R man not in Europe. It certainly does not prove there was any R in Europe at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    MtDNA U is all over the place, and that is all we think we know about it: U, not U5 or whatever. Another thing: the application of antiquated racial categories like Caucasian, Mongoloid, etc., to y and mtDNA haplogroups, especially when they turn up in 24k-year-old remains, is a mistake. What was a "Caucasian" 24,000 years ago? What was a "Mongoloid" 24,000 years ago?

    A y-hap R result in Siberia near Lake Baikal proves that there was at least one Paleolithic R man not in Europe. It certainly does not prove there was any R in Europe at that time.
    You can make racial categories of some haplogroups like U when all of its subclades have a origin in Caucasians. Autosomal DNA proves "race" exists there is a such thing as Caucasian, Oceania-Mongliod, and Sub Saharan African families. It makes sense over 200,000-30,000 years people formed into distinct family groups. If you study mtDNA haplogroups like B and U you will see they obviously are in these separate families Austomal DNA has discovered. There has always been inter marriage that is what the 24,000 year old mtDNA U in Siberia is from.

    I understand some people will be against saying there are Race's but its true there are genetic families which you can call races. mtDNA U isn't poplar "Everywhere" it is centered in Europe, near east, and north Africa where the subclades U1-U9 defintley originated and it barely reach's into eastern Asia and sub Sahara Africa and definitely from inter marriage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If this is true, honestly, I do not see what is so all-fired amazing about it. Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are in Siberia, near Lake Baikal, and pretty far east. How does that translate to "Could it be, then, that Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans largely belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1?"

    First off, we do not know if that alleged 24k year old sample is "R1"; we are only told it belongs to y haplogroup R. Second, Lake Baikal is pretty doggoned far from Europe. I guess finding any very old R anywhere on Planet Earth translates to a faint glimmer of hope for the R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge diehards.

    I guess some R that old so far east is surprising, but whoopee. Siberia isn't in Europe.

    Here is a map that shows where Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are:

    http://donsmaps.com/images26/norther...cimage001b.jpg
    Well R had to be somewhere 24,000 years ago, i agree - I don't know how it being Siberia also means it is in Europe. One could therefore assume that as I is found a lot in Europe, due to modern trade links around the world, I is also very common in places like China and sub-saharan Africa?

    It's a bit of a non-argument on their part, but very interesting results.
    Y-DNA: I1* (Ware, Hertfordshire)
    MT-DNA: U5a1b4 (Boughton Aluph, Kent)
    Father's MT-DNA: J1c8 (Wolverhampton, Staffordshire)
    Grandfather's MT-DNA: H1b (Littlehampton, Sussex)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglecynn View Post
    Well R had to be somewhere 24,000 years ago, i agree - I don't know how it being Siberia also means it is in Europe. One could therefore assume that as I is found a lot in Europe, due to modern trade links around the world, I is also very common in places like China and sub-saharan Africa?

    It's a bit of a non-argument on their part, but very interesting results.
    What sources do you have Y DNA I is popular in Sub Sahara Africa and China?

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    I see rm2 has gotten two thanks because even the smartest people. Like to agree with the well we don't know what race is philosophy and its a big mystery. When it isn't it more simple then figuring out where R1b in western Europe comes from and I don't understand why experts on this website ignore obvious answers on human race from like in globe13.

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    @Fire Haired

    Race is an ephemeral concept. It is based on what people look like and on some anthropometrics laid down by 19th and early 20th century anthropologists who were making comparisons based on what people in different parts of the world looked like and how their skeletons and body parts measured up at that time. Those things depend on autosomal dna, which recombines and changes generation by generation.

    I won't deny that races exist; it's pretty obvious they do. But try defining them scientifically. That is nearly impossible.

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