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Thread: 24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Looks like the same map, the caption of the bottom left is not clear enough on the screen shot.
    It is the same map. See page 20 at https://gap.familytreedna.com/media/..._in_Europe.pdf

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  3. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    No idea if it's [the map] accurate...
    It is not.

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  5. #373
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    R1b1a1b1b3a1a1-R9219
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    R1b-Z211

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    So which population in Poland, Latvia and the Czech Republic are high in R1b then?
    L51+ or L51- ?

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    And the red shaded area east of Turkmenistan seems to be Tajikistan, Kyryzstan, N. Afghanistan and the Tibetan Plateau?


    Kyryzstan has R. The variance in ANE R1b areas adjacent Hindu Kush:
    Afghan,Jowzjan Province, Khazakhstan and Greater Khorasan, Iran Gilan, Azerbaijan.
    R1b* 343 + R1b-2105 + R1b-M73 + R1b M269* [perhaps even R1b V-88 exists in this region also] very little if any R1b L51+ .
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0076748
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwq...600/study4.png



    Last edited by Silesian; 02-11-2014 at 04:54 PM.
    R1b-Z2109 [SVP58/I0444]Kutuluk kurgan avatar, blunt mace 48 cm long, 767 g cast/annealed copper-3335-2881 calBCE

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  7. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    ...

    Kyryzstan has R*.

    [/IMG]
    R1-M173 is a possibility too.

    Edit: They did type M207 & M479 so it does look like R*
    Last edited by parasar; 02-11-2014 at 04:56 PM.

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  9. #375
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    I remember spotting him a few months back. Its only one guy but when its so incredibly rare even on guy is significant. Wonder how he related to the Mal'ta boy? I suppose at least they share the fact that their lines broke off before R1 developed which seems to have happened around 25000BC according to some recent SNP counting attempts on this site.

    Only problem is, as with all of central Asia and the steppe, the area has such a very complex history of nomadic peoples its not at all safe to assume deep local roots. I would still tend to think the history of that area would make an origin for the R* guy in Siberia or central Asia between Altai and Iran most likely. That doesnt help much but it is something and at least Kyrgyzstan is not too far from the Altai area where R* was probably kicking about in the Palaeolithic.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    R1-M173 is a possibility too.

    Edit: They did type M207 & M479 so it does look like R*
    Last edited by alan; 02-11-2014 at 06:03 PM.

  10. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    ...

    On another point I slightly disagree with Dr. Hammer when he says: "SE Asian Origin of Hg P"
    This to me is not proven and also looks unlikely. The P node could have been born in SE Asia, but South Asia, Siberia, or Eastern Europe are better possibilities. But we are nowhere close to pinpointing, we could draw a triangle from Kostenki to Yana to Balangoda, a vast region for the origin of P.
    FWIW, I really don't fully understand it:

    Our results support that a Dene-Yeniseian connection more likely represents radiation out of Beringia with back-migration into central Asia than a migration from central or western Asia to North America ... radiation out of Beringia with both eastward migrations into North America and westward migration into Asia rather than a unidirectional migration from Asia to North America. ... The result showed that the topology that modeled the out-of-central Asia hypotheses did not explain the data better. In fact the model without this constraint showed an average marginal likelihood over 8.5 log units higher than the model with the constraint, providing strong support for the radiation out-of-Beringia hypothesis.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0091722


    Dene-Yeniseian Out-of-Beringia

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  12. #377
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    F0R1a1a-Z280
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    Poland Slovakia Scotland England Ireland

    My observations on mal'tas R* (or hg (F)R0M)

    It of course would be scientific to explain malta as R2 while R2 becomes R1b and R1 becomes R1a.
    However, ancient haplogroups could change the phylogeny of all haplogroups. Therefore all anciently discovered divergent and theorized clades of any haplogroup should be referred to with a 0 afterwards.
    I refer to Mal'tas clade of R y-dna as R0M and the original R man’s haplogroup as R00.Of course I would like to place F in front of all of these but that is a different story (F0R0M F0R1a1a ect)

    R2 is 261 snps away from R00 (of course the real # is much higher then these)
    Mal'ta's R0M is 71 SNPS away from R00
    Mal'ta's R0M is 260 SNPS away from R2.


    If Mal'tas R0M was only 1 snp away from R00 it would suggest that R would only be 24,000 years old. However this is not the case.
    If Mal'ta was 100 snps away from R00 and R2 was 200 I would assume that R was 48,kya (x2)
    R2 is 3.67 times as divergent as haplogroup R0M. If it was
    I will estimate the age of R when I have more time.
    However I will estimate two clades one clade is (F)R1'R2 the ancestor of all known living R males all R*S have been as R2S, however it is very possible that P*(s) are another type of R which would not belong to this clade.
    The other R clade (F)R0 would be just about as old as P and include all males at all times who ever belonged to R including malta and thousands of men older than him.

    A interesting thing I discovered is that R0M is the least divergent haplogroup that has been discovered as of 2014.

    For example assume that the common ancestor of C-V20 and (F)R is 3000 generations back.
    assume median father age is always 25 (which it is not always)
    Me and a living male with C-V20 are apart by 6000 generations. However a living male with CV20 is only apart from malta by 5040 generations because mal'ta only had 2040 (instead of 3000) generations to mutate since the break of the great Eurasian macro haplogroups (C,F clade ). I am 5720 generations away from La Brana. La Brana is only 4760 generations away from mal'ta while I (F0R1a1a-Z280) am 6000 generations away from a living male with C-V20.

    All modern haplogroups are basically the same basal, whether they are O3a or A00. The least basal modern haplogroup (according to both poznik and the mal'ta chart) appears to be (F)G2a (not sure about (F)G1) this is because apparently (F)G2a has mutated less. The basalness of (F)G2a suggests it may be the first haplogroup in the world to practice agriculture, (which led to a higher age of fathers which would lead to less mutations in a given amount of time simply due to a smaller amount of generations). Of course (F)G2a is no where near as basal as (F)R0M.

    My y-dna is closer to MAL'TA's y-dna genetically than I am to a living male with R2 or R1b. Even though mal'ta is phylogenically farther away. R2 and R1b individuals would also see this effect.
    *R1a's distance from MAL'TA (260 SNPS) estimated because this is the distance from R2 to mal'ta.
    *R1a's distance from R2 (392 SNPS)
    *R1a about 300-310 SNPS from R1b. (estimated because 155*2 at least 282)


    source for snps the haplgoroup R chart found on=http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/11/ancient-dna-from-malta-and-afontova-gora-a-full-account/
    Last edited by venustas; 06-03-2014 at 04:35 PM.
    Maternal Uncle y-line= F0R1b1-L21

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  14. #378
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    It seems to me that Mal'ta boy with his middle upper palaeolithic background likely ultimately descends, along with that culture from the early/initial upper Palaeolithic culture of the same area around Baikal and Altai that spread through that zone c. 43000-40000BC. I would imagine we must be talking P people as R was still a long way from existing at that period. Anyway, I have noticed a couple of archaeological papers relevant to the first modern humans spreading into Siberia have come out in the last month or two.

    I noticed two very new papers behind the pay wall that discusses the initial upper palaeolithic phenomenon. One specifically on central Asia and Siberia which I would love to read.

    This paper explores the modes of dispersal, variability, and chronology of the Initial Upper Paleolithic (IUP) of Southern Siberia and the northern Central Asia. Several types of tool-markers, a peculiar type of reduction technology and two types of adornments, specific to the area under study, are distinguished. Based on current data, the author concludes that about 45,000 years ago, there was a rapid eastern movement of populations from a core region in part of the mountains of the Russian Altai towards central Mongolia and southwestern Transbaikal. In these regions, about 43,000–40,000 years ago, a second center of a blade-based IUP appeared. It was characterized by specific forms of tools, reduction technologies and personal adornments similar to those in the core region. Thus, the transfer of a whole set of a unified cultural tradition occurred. Therefore, based on the geographic and temporal distribution of tool-markers, ancient populations moved along the most southern of the possible routes, i.e. over the territory of present-day Mongolia and northwest China.


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40618214002559

    The other seems to take an anti-migratory stance in terms of the general phenomenon of the the group of similar Initial Upper Palaeolithic cultures like those of Siberia, SW Asia and the Bohunician in Europe and argues convergence - I am skeptical of that.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...40618214003498

  15. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I think this map needs some serious revision. As I had noted in my post above there is just no evidence from India prior to Orsang. Which means India did not participate in the AMH occupation of SE Asia and Australia as the map depicts. This actually has been known from the very beginning when the OoA coastal theory was proposed - that India is a complete blank for AMH in the proposed period of coastal migration.

    These same folk who entered India in the Upper Paleolithic also entered Europe, and also E and N Africa. Somewhere in East or SE Asia (cf. http://www.pnas.org/content/107/45/19201 ) we should look for the origins of both M and N. Movement of N was the first one followed by M.

    This proposal by Mishra, et. al., which while not covering mtDNA M and N explicitly, looks more logical to me. One change I would make is on #3, with the arrow coming into India from Sunda rather than from Southern Africa.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...ne.0069280#B56
    Africa to SE Asia and a radiation from there is looking quite possible.
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/supp...ental_Text.pdf
    "Malaysian Chr Y sequence data (Wong et al. 2013) reveals a split in
    haplogroup F that predates the G/HT split by one mutation, F1329 (Figure S13). This finding is
    in accordance with the two Lahu F2-M427 individuals reported in Poznik et al. (2013) as having
    an ancestral allele of M578. In combination with the presence of deep branches of K in Southeast
    Asia, this further strengthens the model proposing that the initial radiation of the non-African
    Chr Y lineages may have taken place somewhere in Southeast Asia
    (Karafet et al. 2014).
    Following PhyloTreeY (van Oven et al. 2014) we re-define the internal structure of haplogroup
    H-M3035 that now incorporates South Asian lineages H1-M69 (predominantly found in Indian
    peninsula), H2-B108 (detected in one of our Burmese samples) and H3-Z5857 (India) that
    previously (Karafet et al. 2008) were recognized as F* (Figure S23). Although all F* lineages
    from South Asia in our data belong to H the phylogenetic depth (40-44 kya) of its division into
    three primary subclades suggests that their distribution patterns may also be considered
    informative about the process of initial radiation of non-African Y chromosomes (Figure S9).
    Although absent in 728 South Asian samples (Sengupta et al. 2006) the rare H4-M282/P96
    lineage (van Oven et al. 2014) has been observed in two Iranians (Regueiro et al. 2006), one
    French (Poznik et al. 2013) and one Dutch individuals (Karafet et al. 2008) as well as several
    low coverage Sardinian sequences (Francalacci et al. 2013). Intersecting the Sardinian variants
    with our data allows us to approximately position the H4 lineage within haplogroup H (Figure
    S23)."

    Also M282/P96 is clearly nested within the Malayan H and main H lines in South Asia.

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  17. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I agree, each and every confirmed R looks Europe derived. Plus nothing much can be gleaned from that singleton Guaymi R1a sample. http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~tgschurr/p...rry%202004.pdf
    Another interesting South American sample: R1a1 Z93 Y3.
    YF19087 from Minas Gerais, Brazil
    Analysis still in progress.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3/

    See also:
    https://www.nature.com/news/dna-stud...esians-1.12710
    "The mtDNA from 12 of the skulls matched a well-known Palaeoamerican haplogroup. But mtDNA from two of the skulls included a haplogroup commonly found in Polynesia, Easter Island and other Pacific island archipelagos, the researchers report today in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences1. A separate lab confirmed the result with samples from one of the skulls, indicating that the ‘Polynesian haplogroup’ did not result from contamination, the researchers contend.

    “But to call that haplogroup Polynesian is a bit of a misnomer,” says Lisa Matisoo-Smith, a molecular anthropologist at the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. The haplogroup is also found — albeit at a lower frequency — in populations living as far west as Madagascar.

    Nevertheless, says Pena, it is a mystery how DNA from Palaeoamericans living in southeastern Brazil could include gene sequences typically found in Pacific islanders."

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