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Thread: 24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    What sources do you have Y DNA I is popular in Sub Sahara Africa and China?
    I was just making a point, we know that I is practically non existant in those places, yet it is found in Europe. So in my mind finding R in Siberia is somewhat expected (either that or Central Asia) and does not mean it was in Europe at the same time. That is my problem with some elements of the article.
    Y-DNA: I1* (Ware, Hertfordshire)
    MT-DNA: U5a1b4 (Boughton Aluph, Kent)
    Father's MT-DNA: J1c8 (Wolverhampton, Staffordshire)
    Grandfather's MT-DNA: H1b (Littlehampton, Sussex)

  2. #12
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    It's interesting, considering the hotspots of the 'East Euro' component in Eurogenes, it's correlation with R1a, and now this article.

    Certainly shows there is something of a continuum along this northern zone that terminates in the north European plain at the western end. Especially when you factor in y-DNA N and Q as well.

    Y-DNA: I1* (Ware, Hertfordshire)
    MT-DNA: U5a1b4 (Boughton Aluph, Kent)
    Father's MT-DNA: J1c8 (Wolverhampton, Staffordshire)
    Grandfather's MT-DNA: H1b (Littlehampton, Sussex)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglecynn View Post
    It's interesting, considering the hotspots of the 'East Euro' component in Eurogenes, it's correlation with R1a, and now this article.

    Certainly shows there is something of a continuum along this northern zone that terminates in the north European plain at the western end. Especially when you factor in y-DNA N and Q as well.

    The east Euro in Asia is probably rom spread of R1a1a1b2 Z93 with Indo Iranian and Tocharian languages. I think it was there in the Mesolithic but was then spread further by R1a1a1 M417 Indo Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Here is the original article Surprising aDNA results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y-DNA R).

    I have been saying for so long Y DNA R is Mongliod and originated probably in Siberia but it seemed no one believed me.
    Sorry, but you didn't really go out on a limb with that one. Every study and poster over the last 8 years has said that haplogroup R originated somewhere in central Asia. Heck, even my first National Genographic test (2008) had this pinned down pretty good...

    Haplogroup_R.png
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Sorry, but you didn't really go out on a limb with that one. Every study and poster over the last 8 years has said that haplogroup R originated somewhere in central Asia. Heck, even my first National Genographic test (2008) had this pinned down pretty good...

    Haplogroup_R.png
    This Siberian sample means that R was in Siberia at least 24,000 years ago that's a early times for Y DNA R. I have been saying that its Mongolied not Caucasian. I am shocked that even very smart people like Mikwww who know so much about pre history and DNA but ignore the facts Austomal DNA tells about Human families because it is to close to race. There are clearly mtDNA and Y DNA haplogroups that originated in certain human races identified in austosomal DNA. People are so stubborn to belive that Y DNA R1 did not became widespread in Europe starting 5,000ybp. Just because it is so popular in Europeans today does not mean it tells something about European origin and people just cant belive it was originally a Mongol Y DNA haplogroup. I have been saying to family members our direct male line 20,000-30,000ybp was in Siberia and no one believed me I am just happy a 24,000 year old Y DNA R sample in Siberia as evdeince. I have also said that he would of looked like Native Americans with very dark skin. And I have been saying that there had to of been Mongol Y DNA R and Caucasian inter marriage around 15,000-25,000ybp and the R became R2 and I guess the R1 became R1a and R1b. The mtDNA U proves Caucasian inter marriage everything is coming out perfectly.

    According to this

    Debetz (1946) identified the remains of “nothern Asian Mongoloids” at the site of
    Afontova Gora 2; they included a fragment of the frontal bone. Mongoloid features had
    been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of
    Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this
    area was “inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance.”
    The Malta people had Mongoloid features also.
    Willerslev: Based on genomes, "the Mal'ta is much darker if you want than the iceman (Otzi)" #paleoamericanodyssey
    Here I am guessing their talking about skin color so much darker than Otzie 5,300 year old Farmer from alps, Italy. I would guess as dark as modern native Americans it is debatable that Europeans ancestors 24,000ybp where pale skinned or like other Caucasian's but I think the Mongoloid features and dark skin is evidence the Caucasian mtDNA U went back a few generations it wasn't his mother.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 10-20-2013 at 04:20 AM.

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  8. #16
    I have written this on another thread. Richard is Richard Rocca:
    “Richard, a simple equation: R&U: we know that U (above all U5 and U4 but also U2e) is the mtDNA of palaeolithic Europeans. This, if confirmed, could be the proof that some R&U migrated before the LGM to South Asia (R2&U), Central Asia (R1a&U), Western Europe (R1b&U) = R1b would be palaeolithic in Europe.
    From these data we could hypothesize that also Q was born more western Eurasian than it was thought before”.

    P.S. Of course that hg. R* was in Central Siberia 24,000 years ago doesn’t mean that it was a few later in Europe, but you probably know that I am spending these last years in demonstrating that there has been an “Italian Refugium” of hg. R1b1 (and many others, above all mtDNA, I think having demonstrated ad abundantiam) during at least the Younger Dryas. Of course we have to find some aDNA which proves this, but we are arriving in the truth, I think, with these last tests (Geno 2.0, Chromo 2 and above all the Full Y).
    We have an interesting discussion on other threads about R-M269* and R-L23* and I am happy that also Mikewww is taking in consideration my previous analyses. But my strong point remains R1b1* cluster A, where I think having demonstrated that Italy has so far the highest variance. The other clusters aren’t the ancestor of R-M269*, beginning from the Iberian one: see Segarra’s Geno 2.0 with 4 mutations, whereas DeMao has only one, and it is highly suspicious that he wasn’t able to send his Geno 2.0 to the FTDNA R1b1 Project.
    I have ordered a Geno 2.0 for my acquired cousin Fabrizio Federighi (R-M269* with DYS462=12), because we are trying to verify if all the survived R-M269* belong to the cluster with L150+ and the three Sardinian SNPs PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+.
    Last edited by Rathna; 10-20-2013 at 08:12 AM.

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    @ Rathna - I replied on that thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...al-ta-Siberian

    U is not restricted to Palaeolithic Europeans. On the evidence so far we can deduce that U itself probably arose at what I call the Asian cross-roads, which is not an exact location, but just my term for the general area between the Persian Gulf, the Caspian and the Himalayan, Karakoram and Hindu Kush mountains, where we can surmise that groups of Homo sapiens went in different directions. Some went south into South Asia, some north to eventually reach north-east Asia and the Americas, some west towards the Levant. From the Levant we have another parting of the ways, with some U entering Europe (where it seems U5 was born) and some entering North Africa (where U6 was born.)

    I deduce this pattern from the fact that U2 seems to have been born from U in the Asian cross-roads later on, since the oldest U2 subclades are found in South Asia, yet we also have U2 entering Europe in the Palaeolithic, apparently via the Caucasus. U3 appears to have arisen from U in the Levant.

    There is no reason to suppose that Y-DNA R was born in Europe, and absolutely no data to support the idea that R1b was Palaeolithic in Europe or anywhere else. The estimated date I have for it is c. 12,000 BC. The big question has been where Y-DNA R took refuge in the LGM. It looked to me as though we had two choices:

    1. The southern Caspian.
    2. Around Lake Baikal and the Yenisei.

    I went for the South Caspian. That seemed to best explain the data thus far (i.e. prior to this paper that we now await). It looked to me as though Y-DNA N and mtDNA C arrived around the Volga from Lake Baikal. But there was always the possibility that Y-DNA R arrived the same way. We shall just have to wait and see.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-20-2013 at 10:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I won't deny that races exist; it's pretty obvious they do. But try defining them scientifically. That is nearly impossible.
    I'll have a go. "Race" or "breed" can be used to refer to the bundle of characteristics that typify a group within a species that has inter-bred in natural or controlled reproductive isolation, so creating genetic drift which makes the group distinct in specific ways from other groups within that species. Homo sapiens created its own relatively isolated inter-breeding groups by spreading across the world and then getting cut off by seas and other geographical barriers, mainly between the continents. However the process of genetic drift did not happen overnight. It took a long time. The characteristics that we see as specifically East Asian (thick hair etc) appear to have arisen from a single mutation in Central China between 13,175 and 39,575 years ago. See http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-artic...0000-years-ago

    That does not mean that people cut off around Lake Baikal in the LGM had acquired this mutation even in one person, let alone having it fixed by genetic drift by that time. According to German Dziebel's report on Eske Willerslev’s ancient DNA analysis of Mal’ta and Afontova Gora, these samples showed no connection with East Asians autosomally.

    Neither did these samples resemble modern Europeans in every way. On analysis of his genome, the Mal’ta sample would have been much darker in colouring than Otzi. https://twitter.com/sw4mi/status/390972953795362816 . This should come as no surprise. The European-type alleles at TYRP1, SLC24A5, and SLC45A2 appear to have arisen much later - all within the last 11,000-19,000 years. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/looks.shtml
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-20-2013 at 03:15 PM.

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    I think the exact opposite. Haplogroup Q is probably a west Eurasian group that picked up other characteristics on its long journey through the east. Q is not as close to R as people often think. The common ancestor P is a heck of a long time back and I think its very wide of the mark to place modern racial categorisation back in the early upper Palaeolithic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Here is the original article Surprising aDNA results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y-DNA R).


    I have been saying for so long Y DNA R is Mongliod and originated probably in Siberia but it seemed no one believed me. I also have been saying R got to Caucasians through inter marriage around 20,000ybp developing into R1b somewhere around the Near east and R1a possibly in Europe and R2 around south asia and Iran. This is now prove of Caucasian-Mongolid Y DNA R inter marriage from 24,000ybp!!! I have thought that it would be the Mongliods migrating west into the Near east and Europe but this mtDNa U is prove of Caucasians migrating east and inter marrying with Mongliod Y DNA R. I think the article made a terrible mistake it is not likely R was in Europe 24,000ybp because it was in Siberia are you freaking kidding me. He is trying to connect this with Europe not realizing R1a1a1b1 Z283 did not became widespread and dominate in eastern Europe till Corded ware culture(spoke ancestral language to Balto Slavic) just 5,000ybp and R1b1a2a1a L11 did not begin to spread in western Europe with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages till just 4,500-5,000ybp. If anything the mtDNA U I think is connected with the Near east not Europe and might be connected with Native American mtDNA X2. They have their own unique subclade X2g and they also have subclade X2a which has been found in Israeli Druze.

    They also added that he was darker than Otzie(5,300 year old copper age farmer alps Italy) who had brown hair and brown eyes so their probably talking about skin color. If they are his dark skin should not be a surprise because of Native Americans who migrated out of Siberia over 20,000ybp are very dark.

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    I agree its hardly a shock. Its always been contended that R* emerged somewhere around central Asia in that sort of timeframe. Its exactly what most people thought. As for Ice Age regugia, finding a potentially R* man in Siberia 22000BC actually adds to the already obvious impossibility of R1b in a western refuge in the ice age - something that is clearly complete nonsense anyway considering it is most DF27, a very young clade in the R story.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If this is true, honestly, I do not see what is so all-fired amazing about it. Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are in Siberia, near Lake Baikal, and pretty far east. How does that translate to "Could it be, then, that Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans largely belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1?"

    First off, we do not know if that alleged 24k year old sample is "R1"; we are only told it belongs to y haplogroup R. Second, Lake Baikal is pretty doggoned far from Europe. I guess finding any very old R anywhere on Planet Earth translates to a faint glimmer of hope for the R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge diehards.

    I guess some R that old so far east is surprising, but whoopee. Siberia isn't in Europe.

    Here is a map that shows where Mal’ta and Afontova Gora are:

    http://donsmaps.com/images26/norther...cimage001b.jpg

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