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Thread: M458-Vistula Veneti?

  1. #1
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    M458-Vistula Veneti?

    I have developed some theories on M458, and specifically L1029, one, because it is my subclade, and two, because its spread is, frankly, goofy. Because of this I have come to believe that the parent of L1029, M458, is linked to the Vistula Veneti and its broad spread is linked to the fact that the Vistula Veneti were assimilated into other area populations that remain extant (Germanics, Slavics) and then spread around Eastern and Central Europe with the migrations of those people. The other major subclade of M458, L260, is more West Slavic in its spread. I think L260 originated in east central Poland and then spread in the West Slavic migrations, and also remained in its central Polish home, of course. I believe L1029 originated in Silesia and spread along the Carpathian-Sudeten line, and also up the Oder and into East Germany. The eastern subclades were assimilated into the Antes people, who then migrated to Bulgaria and are responsible for the relatively high frequencies of L1029 there. According to WeGene, I am in the YP445 micro-clade; the only other record I could find of it is a John Shanner, born in 1776 in England. The parent of YP445 is YP444, which according to the Polish Vayda blog, originated between the Elbe and Oder around 150 AD, and has its highest frequency in Austria (Lombards?), while my male line is from Germany and likely Wurttemberg (Suevi?). The spread of L1029 being what it is, I feel it is best explained by a joint German-Slavic assimilation of a third, now extinct, people, which for the most likely geographic explanation is the Vistula Veneti.

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  3. #2
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    Interesting theory. I, too, have my patrilineal line through M458 and L1029. Based upon my results, I find some concerns regarding your theory that L1029 originated in Silesia. According to YFull, I have matches at the L1029 level with men whose patrilineal lines settled in regions as diverse as Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Russia, Estonia, Hungary, Czech, Germany, Poland, England, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Italy, Albania and even China. Now at the YP263 level, things coalesce a bit more: Poland, Germany, Russia, Belarus, Finland, Sweden, Norway and possibly England. At this level, I think of the linguistic theory of a Balto-Slavic tree. It appears, to me, that YP263 - down the line from L1029 - was situated in an area accessible to both east central and Baltic Europe.

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  5. #3
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    also L1029+ and also württemberg{franconian, no clue where it or the ancestral subclade M458 originated no theories either, but if your banking on the suevi in württemberg than all i can add is that my earliest known ancestor is from an area which incl three places with a windish/wend toponym and thats what i am banking on aka medieval wends(most prob sorbs) historical context relocated as coloni{wandalicus colonus} into southern germany aka south of the main river as the(some) saxons before them;

    all im waiting for (personally) is a paper on the former slavic lands of now germany bet itll be raining M458s, infact the so far oldest known M458er comes from such a context aka medieval wends on usedom; i just hope for better/in-depth publication as recently they found three seperate R1a families in medieval bavaria but just published as R1a(thats it), no es bueno!
    Last edited by alexfritz; 07-22-2018 at 01:32 AM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  7. #4
    But this theory does not explain caucasian M458.
    West european M458 also is not too well explained.
    M458 is probably Corded clade which was spread with
    early migrations of IEs or with germanic tribes.

    But I discribed also another possibility here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....mats-and-Alans

    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    also L1029+ and also württemberg{franconian, no clue where it or the ancestral subclade M458 originated no theories either, but if your banking on the suevi in württemberg than all i can add is that my earliest known ancestor is from an area which incl three places with a windish/wend toponym and thats what i am banking on aka medieval wends(most prob sorbs) historical context relocated as coloni{wandalicus colonus} into southern germany aka south of the main river as the(some) saxons before them;
    This is interesting, becasue I am from asterix clade*, but my ancestor was
    probably from the Swabia+. Also toponomy in that area is very pro me, but
    this toponomy is not slavic for surely. Germanic, maybe latin, but not slavic.
    Last edited by Rethel; 07-22-2018 at 10:41 AM.

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    also L1029+ and also württemberg{franconian, no clue where it or the ancestral subclade M458 originated no theories either, but if your banking on the suevi in württemberg than all i can add is that my earliest known ancestor is from an area which incl three places with a windish/wend toponym and thats what i am banking on aka medieval wends(most prob sorbs) historical context relocated as coloni{wandalicus colonus} into southern germany aka south of the main river as the(some) saxons before them;

    all im waiting for (personally) is a paper on the former slavic lands of now germany bet itll be raining M458s, infact the so far oldest known M458er comes from such a context aka medieval wends on usedom; i just hope for better/in-depth publication as recently they found three seperate R1a families in medieval bavaria but just published as R1a(thats it), no es bueno!
    Until we get ADNA pre-500AD and Late Iron Age nothing is certain about whom carried it originally. If they are connected to Vistula Veneti as mentioned by Tacitus then the line would have surely been Proto Baltic and moved atypically with Goths Vandals and Maybe Saxons. Considering the consensus is slavs didn’t enter the area until 500AD or so, and the Veneti were already neighboring East Germanic as early as 69AD(first mention) if not earlier; it’s probable to assume it took many routes with several overlapping tribes prior to the migration.

    Z280/I2a1b are still the most prevalent in most Slavic nations outside of Poles and Belarus. 2 nations of which were largely occupied by Proto-Balts and overlapped with East Germanics.

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    Also it appears that M458 had a drastic population collapse and has a small number of descendant clades, unlike Z280.

  11. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    But this theory does not explain caucasian M458.
    West european M458 also is not too well explained.
    M458 is probably Corded clade which was spread with
    early migrations of IEs or with germanic tribes.
    M458 spreading with the Corded Ware is a possibility. Of course, at that time there is no Slavic or Germanic, and really no Proto Slavic or Proto Germanic. By the time we have such tribal groupings, a major clade of M458 surfaces, R-CTS11962, which YFull has as originating around 3000 years ago, a possible culture for this could be the Trzciniec (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture) which most see as a precursor to the Slavic culture.

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