A deeper think about beakers in Britain and R1b DNA "from the West"

[Net Down G5L]

Hi all. I am an amateur hobbyist and I am studying beakers, tumuli and Celtic fields in Southern England (particularly Wessex). I note that the recent 'deeper think about beakers' ranged far and wide but had limited discussion about archaeological evidence in the Isles and did not discuss if DNA evidence could support Barry Cunliffe's "Celtic from the West" hypothesis (unless I missed it). This is my first forum post and I have seen you prefer newbies to keep their initial posts and ideas brief. So my brief starting point for discussion is my hypothesis, based on posted L11* and P312* variance data and published archaeology papers, ........

that beaker type pots and people with P312 DNA were both "parachuted" in to Iberia / France by boat - from the Southern Baltic- via the Megalithic Superhighway (http://bronzeagecelt.info/megalithicsuperhighway.html).

I am interested to explore the recent suggestion of an L11 South Baltic Modal Haplotype . (Ballardgen - closed facebook group) and the possible origin / spread of P312 from that area. [ Also what might DF100 tell us when we have more information.]
I am interested in your (collective) expert analysis of STR data for L11* and P312* (what are the differences between STRs and STR variance data for the southern Baltic and the Italian Alps). Could this data support L11/P312 via a Northern route and the Megalithic Superhighway or does it better support the recent speculation (e.g. by Alan) that P312 came to the west "through the Alps and Italy" (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...d-genes/page22) .
Net Down G5L a.k.a. Bobsky

[razyn]

I'm not at all sure that we know, yet, but I'm happy to see somebody else on the planet looking at the Baltic (with a T in it), and not exclusively at the Balkans (with a K) -- after which the argument deteriorates to the question, on which side of the Alps must one's big overland migration have passed?

I think I was making foolish suggestions about the Vistula and so on in about May, 2011. Some of that was on DNA-Forums and is now invisible; some can still be dredged up on Eupedia, or later on the WorldFamilies R1b forum, and most was somehow related to Z196 -- which has turned out to be probably a little too far out one branch of DF27, and therefore putatively too young to be relevant to a Megalithic Superhighway. [A Copper Age highway looks about early enough.] For purposes of discussion, L11* is probably a much better genetic target; but the available data on it were then, and are still, pretty thin. But without even casting one's gaze in that direction (the Baltic, and maybe some old coastlines that are under it now), one gets into the "absence of evidence" trap.

Good luck getting a rise out of this group, anyhow.

[Jean M]

Hi all. This is my first forum post and I have seen you prefer newbies to keep their initial posts and ideas brief.

Welcome to Anthrogenica! I think you will find brevity appreciated on most forums.

that beaker type pots and people with P312 DNA were both "parachuted" in to Iberia / France by boat - from the Southern Baltic

The insurmountable problem with that idea is that Bell Beaker was later in the Baltic. See Volker Heyd, When the West Meets the East: The Eastern Periphery of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon and Its Relation with the Aegean Early Bronze Age (2008)

As Heyd explains, the Baltic Bell Beaker was on the eastern periphery of BB and blended with local cultures to become a local variety. It has similarities to BB in Jutland (also late).

[Jean M]

The origins of the various Bell Beaker types in Poland (click to enlarge):

BBPoland.JPG

From Janusz Czebreszuk and Marzena Szmyt, Bell Beakers and the cultural milieu of the North European Plan, chapter 6 in Background to Beakers (2012) http://www.scribd.com/doc/106362709/...und-to-Beakers

[razyn]

That's as may be, but Figs. 5 through 8 in the same paper appear to assume that these people were still afraid to get out on the Baltic or North Seas in wooden boats (with or without sails). And I don't believe that. The parachuting theory in Bobsky's post assumes that they were kind of OK with oceans. And I do believe that.

But there is a lot less old pottery to look at on the ocean.

[Jean M]

To get from Poland (2300-2200 BC) to Britain (2450 BC), they would need not just boats, but a time machine.

[razyn]

Or, to start earlier than you currently think. I'm not arguing with the evidence these authors have, but only suggesting things might have happened for which the physical evidence isn't available (or, has been dated wrong).

[TigerMW]

...I note that the recent 'deeper think about beakers' ranged far and wide but had limited discussion about archaeological evidence in the Isles and did not discuss if DNA evidence could support Barry Cunliffe's "Celtic from the West" hypothesis (unless I missed it).

I actually mentioned Koch and "Celtic from the West" but it is was a veiled reference to mid-period Beakers and and a possible Tartessos connection with Rio Tinto and advanced metallurgy (over the first Beakers.)

This is my first forum post and I have seen you prefer newbies to keep their initial posts and ideas brief.

I don't think there is any reason to worry about what the rest of us think other than the general forum rules/policies. Someone new to the forum has every right to fully describe an idea, although I'm sure conciseness will always be appreciated.

... I am interested to explore the recent suggestion of an L11 South Baltic Modal Haplotype . (Ballardgen - closed facebook group) and the possible origin / spread of P312 from that area. [ Also what might DF100 tell us when we have more information.]

What is the L11 South Baltic Modal Haplotype? Unfortunately our L11* data is scant and its hard to differentiate from what I can tell.

... I am interested in your (collective) expert analysis of STR data for L11* and P312* (what are the differences between STRs and STR variance data for the southern Baltic and the Italian Alps)...

P312* may have just disappeared on us. DF27 really takes the bite out of it after you've already subtracted both U152 and L21. DF19 and L238 take two smaller bites out of the remainder and the folks in those two groups do think think they are related to Northern European areas.

After that, P312* may truly be gone other than a new discovery, DF99. I can't say it is from a particular area but we clearly don't have any reason yet to think it is Iberian or Mediterranean.

I'm not an expert but I have access to long haplotype project data. What would you like to compare? I have spreadsheets that calculate variance about anyway you want it (geographically) but I don't think enough true P312* or L11* is around to compare diversity by region.

... that beaker type pots and people with P312 DNA were both "parachuted" in to Iberia / France by boat - from the Southern Baltic- via the Megalithic Superhighway

I don't really see that but I do find it ironic. On other threads we have discussions on P312 being Celtic and U106 being Germanic so it would be quite ironic if P312 got to the Atlantic fringe via the Baltic.

[[[EDIT: I meant DF99 appears to take the last bite out of P312*, not DF100. It is now corrected above.]]]

[Net Down G5L]

Thanks for the response Jean (I am astonished by your bredth of knowledge as shown in your book)...re:

"The insurmountable problem with that idea is that Bell Beaker was later in the Baltic. See Volker Heyd, When the West Meets the East: The Eastern Periphery of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon and Its Relation with the Aegean Early Bronze Age (2008)"

I am not suggesting that P312 carried Bell Beaker pots to Iberia. The Megalithic Superhighway was almost certainly in use from Mesolithic times. The distribution of Megalithic monuments suggests that people with I and G DNA used this route extensively - pre-R1b in the area. People with I DNA could have carried TRB pottery to Iberia any time from say 4000BC. Jan Turek ( 2012 Origin of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon. The Moroccan connection - Chapter 8, of Background to Beakers) suggests that the designs for Bell Beaker pots travelled North to Iberia from Morocco (on the Megalithic Superhighway). Iberia and Coastal France could just have been meeting points where TRB pots, Moroccan (and other) designs, and ultimately R1b all met up.

So in my view, no time machine is necessary. Bell Beaker pots/culture did not originate in the Baltic/Jutland - just some of the components.

[Net Down G5L]

Thanks Razyn for your comments. Re:

"That's as may be, but Figs. 5 through 8 in the same paper appear to assume that these people were still afraid to get out on the Baltic or North Seas in wooden boats (with or without sails). And I don't believe that. The parachuting theory in Bobsky's post assumes that they were kind of OK with oceans. And I do believe that.

But there is a lot less old pottery to look at on the ocean."

It seems to me that 'Bell Beaker folk' were primarily people of the sea and rivers (see distribution maps e.g. Vander Linden). They initially seem to overlay a variable/developing culture on what was already present (though in some places /later times they seemed to want to dominate (e.g. Mark Vander Linden M 2004 Polythetic Networks, Coherent People A new historical hypothesis for the Bell Beaker phenomenon.)

They may not have left pottery floating on the oceans - but there are increasing numbers of bronze age boats being discovered. (e.g. Van de Noort R (2012) Exploring agency behind the Beaker Phenomenon. The navigator's tale.) If (granted - a very big if) 'Beaker folk' were primarily travellers by boat it makes more sense to me to build your boat at the coast, move along the coast and up the rivers. Not to build your boat in the Alps and work your way down.