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Thread: A deeper think about beakers in Britain and R1b DNA "from the West"

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    Hi Mike, thanks for your response and questions. You say you are not an expert...but when it comes to understanding DNA I see you as Barcelona playing in the World Supercup - and I am Hyde United playing in the Northern Premier League (that is soccer to all of you in the States...all you need to know is Barcelona are very very good ...and Hyde United......not). So I was sort of hoping you may have some creative ideas.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What is the L11 South Baltic Modal Haplotype? Unfortunately our L11* data is scant and its hard to differentiate from what I can tell.
    Good question ....I was hoping you could answer that. Ballardgen posted that as intro to their closed facebook group - so I can not see the discussion or the data behind it. They also seem to suggest that L11* migrated to Central England and the Alps at a very much later date. They could be right. Or, L11* could have reached England very early - e.g. along with I DNA people when the builders of the long barrows who first arrived (from Jutland?) in the early Neolithic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm not an expert but I have access to long haplotype project data. What would you like to compare? I have spreadsheets that calculate variance about anyway you want it (geographically) but I don't think enough true P312* or L11* is around to compare diversity by region.
    Putting variance on hold for the moment - I was wondering if there was a pattern of STR markers in Baltic and Alpine L11 that could suggest P312 is most closely related to/descends from one or the other. (Can I get access to such raw data anywhere?) That is based on an assumption that an L11 split could have occurred to the East and one branch of L11 moved North to the South Baltic and one East towards the Alps. (I have long thought that the Northern route was the route where U106 spun off - and where lactase persistence got so embedded in to the west coast R1b's.) However, after Alan's deeper think about beakers thread I am open minded to the Alpine route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I don't really see that but I do find it ironic. On other threads we have discussions on P312 being Celtic and U106 being Germanic so it would be quite ironic if P312 got to the Atlantic fringe via the Baltic.
    Yes. And P312 and even early U106 could still both be early / proto Celtic speakers if they arrived via the Northern route. And if (an even bigger if) Celtic was / became the lingua franca of the Megalithic Superhighway. Barry Cunliffe has the West Coast as Celtic speaking by 3000BC in Britain Begins. While he is probably not always right about everything, he is - in my opinion - probably Britain's leading living archaeologist. We ignore him at our cost and we should test his ideas thoroughly.
    Last edited by Net Down G5L; 10-22-2013 at 08:04 AM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post

    Good question ....I was hoping you could answer that. Ballardgen posted that as intro to their closed facebook group - so I can not see the discussion or the data behind it. They also seem to suggest that L11* migrated to Central England and the Alps at a very much later date. They could be right. Or, L11* could have reached England very early - e.g. along with I DNA people when the builders of the long barrows who first arrived (from Jutland?) in the early Neolithic.

    Putting variance on hold for the moment - I was wondering if there was a pattern of STR markers in Baltic and Alpine L11 that could suggest P312 is most closely related to/descends from one or the other. (Can I get access to such raw data anywhere?) That is based on an assumption that an L11 split could have occurred to the East and one branch of L11 moved North to the South Baltic and one East towards the Alps. (I have long thought that the Northern route was the route where U106 spun off - and where lactase persistence got so embedded in to the west coast R1b's.) However, after Alan's deeper think about beakers thread I am open minded to the Alpine route.
    I may answer your question with some posts I published here and elsewhere:
    "This could be very interesting. I agreed with ballardgen's hypothesis that his R-L11* was of Italian origin but from a Langobard descent and this could explain the rarity of R-L11* in Italy and this was a lack in my theory of the Italian Refugium, but I have posted some posts also about very varied Italian R-L11*, and my hypothesis was that these samples were the witness of the most ancient R-L11* from the Italian Refugium. If these "German" R-L11* were actually" R-DF100* and the Italian R-L11+/DF100-, this could be good for me".

    This I wrote to ballardgen on Worldfamilies:
    Quote from: ballardgen on October 02, 2013, 02:43:12 PM
    We accept the current pathway from Anatolia/Armenia that places the evolved P310*/L11* peoples in the area of Germany and Sth Baltic.


    I remember to you all what I wrote here (thread: R-L11 in Italy):

    Now the few Italian R-L11 (and some could be amongst the Italians tested by SMGF I put on ySearch, but about them there isn’t the certitude of the SNP test) are just outliers amongst the R-L11 known.

    This sample from Boattini’s:

    DYS390=25
    DYS391=12
    DYS388=14
    DYS389I=12
    DYS448=20
    H4=12
    DYS438=13
    DYS635=24

    And here are the Zohrab's values from Armenia:
    N9165 Zohrab b Erevan, Armenia ca 1580 d New Julfa 1620 Armenia R1b1a2a1a1
    14 24 15 10 10-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 24 14 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 16 17 36-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

    In the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" there is this only R-L11 and no R-L51, whereas Italy had probably the highest percentage of this haplogroup. I agree that probably R-L11 (but there is the possibility that they are all R-DF100) is linked with Germans, but not that R-L51 and R-L11 came from Armenia. All this could be the witness that the Armenian R-L23 came from the Balkans (and before from Italy) with the first migrations of Indo-Europeans, but the subclades didn't reach the Caucasus".

    I remark: the Italian sample of Boattini has the highest variance so far known of an R-L11* all over the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    I am not suggesting that P312 carried Bell Beaker pots to Iberia..
    I'm leaving the P312 response to people here who live and breathe P312. What I am pointing out is that Bell Beaker did not go from the Baltic in any direction. It arrived in the Baltic quite late in the Bell Beaker story and was clearly derived from elsewhere. It developed its own little quirks in the Baltic, which did not travel out from there. Not even one component of the pottery design. The pottery design was fully formed in Portugal several centuries earlier than it arrived in the Baltic.

    Jan Turek ( 2012 Origin of the Bell Beaker Phenomenon. The Moroccan connection - Chapter 8, of Background to Beakers) suggests that the designs for Bell Beaker pots travelled North to Iberia from Morocco
    Yes it is amusing. You will find many such papers floating around which are written from a local perspective and optimistically derive some element or another of BB design from some previous local pottery, unaware that said element can be found in a number of other places. The Moroccan Neolithic pottery is just a type of Impressed Ware. Neolithic Impressed Ware is found pretty much all around the Mediterranean. Cord-impressed ware is found on the steppe. This appears to be the origin of the cord impressions on both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-22-2013 at 11:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    It seems to me that 'Bell Beaker folk' were primarily people of the sea and rivers (see distribution maps e.g. Vander Linden).
    Yes that is very obvious. There would be no other way to get to Britain, Ireland, Sardinia, Morocco etc. except by sea. Bell Beaker pottery conspicuously clusters around major rivers. However they were not the first people to use river and sea transport to migrate and trade. Neolithic farmers did the same. Mesolithic people did the same, as you know. It was a handy way to get about with loads without having to carry them in the days before packhorses and wheeled vehicles. People could then spread out from a base near water.

    By the Copper Age, the new forms of transport were available, but overland trekking could still be slower and more difficult without established trackways. Water transport could by-pass mountains and dense forests. But we should not imagine that Copper Age people could not move more than a mile or two from a major waterway. They could and did. They had horses. They needed copper (and later tin) and homed in on sources of it. They needed to farm and raise stock. They visited community meeting places such as Stonehenge far from the sea or a major river. They got about.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-22-2013 at 12:11 PM.

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    I dont know about Cunliffe. He is obviously a great archaeologists but he tends to write books with a very wide brief. Noone is the greatest expert on every place at all periods in terms of archaeology, genes, lingustics, history etc. There is always a price for trying to cover everything. I certainly think on a pan European scale his wish to find generalised patterns and his thing about geographical/maritime patterning and liking for breaking down major cultures into a few simple blocks does lead him astray at times as it leads to oversimplification. I think his books are great reads but I certainly think he has flaws.

    Some of his ideas like Celtic speaking passage tomb builders for instance are borderline mad. I also think its important to remember that Koch, of great interest though he is, is pushing a minority theory not a mainstream one. Many linguists doubt that Tartessian was originally Celtic. The idea that Celtic developed out of Lusitanian also seems lunatic fringe to me. They were parallel languages, not ancestor and descendant.

    The archaeology of Atlantic Iberia shows a very long period of disconnect with the rest of the future Celtic speaking world between the beaker and Atlantic Bronze Age period at- at least 2200-1000BC. Indeed Atlantic Iberia was a late addition to the later Atlantic network of the Late Bronze Age, not the originator of it and it also soon broke off again after just a couple of centuries. Iberia's role in the Atlantic Bronze Age was one of joining late and leaving early a networking which had existed for centuries before and continued for a while after Iberia's brief participation. Read 'The Atlantic Iron Age; book for a detailed analysis of this - and that is from an author who is into the Atlantic thing to a degree that seems unwarranted at times. He really shows that the Atlantic zones role was often to put its own spin on central European ideas, usually in northenr France and the isles, before transferring them through the isles along the channel and down the western seaways of France. Iberia was just a late southern extension of this and appears to really be in the main a receiver of ideas and metal from the north Atlantic (via Altantic France) rather than anything else. Now I understand more about how this worked, the only possible role I would give Iberia in this is that it is possible that Celtic reached NW and SW Iberia from NW France through those contacts. leaving the more archaic beaker-relic Lusitanian dialect in between. Basically I think Celtic as a distinct dialect probably really slowly converged from earlier Italo-Celtic dialects of the beaker period and that this happened first in the contact zone between Unetice, NW France and the Isles from 2000BC onwards and was probably a constant process with no sharp beginning or end. That triangle of elite contacts between those areas was still the main one in the Late Bronze Age. I have very little doubt that Celtic emerged over a wide area of elite contact in central and NW Europe and went though 1000 years of evolution and convergence. At some point in this evolution the shifts that linguists define Celtic by took place although that is in a sense an arbitrary concept of linguists because shared evolution continued for long after that as we can see by the way the Q-P shift could spread without much migration.





    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    Hi Mike, thanks for your response and questions. You say you are not an expert...but when it comes to understanding DNA I see you as Barcelona playing in the World Supercup - and I am Hyde United playing in the Northern Premier League (that is soccer to all of you in the States...all you need to know is Barcelona are very very good ...and Hyde United......not). So I was sort of hoping you may have some creative ideas.....


    Good question ....I was hoping you could answer that. Ballardgen posted that as intro to their closed facebook group - so I can not see the discussion or the data behind it. They also seem to suggest that L11* migrated to Central England and the Alps at a very much later date. They could be right. Or, L11* could have reached England very early - e.g. along with I DNA people when the builders of the long barrows who first arrived (from Jutland?) in the early Neolithic.




    Putting variance on hold for the moment - I was wondering if there was a pattern of STR markers in Baltic and Alpine L11 that could suggest P312 is most closely related to/descends from one or the other. (Can I get access to such raw data anywhere?) That is based on an assumption that an L11 split could have occurred to the East and one branch of L11 moved North to the South Baltic and one East towards the Alps. (I have long thought that the Northern route was the route where U106 spun off - and where lactase persistence got so embedded in to the west coast R1b's.) However, after Alan's deeper think about beakers thread I am open minded to the Alpine route.



    Yes. And P312 and even early U106 could still both be early / proto Celtic speakers if they arrived via the Northern route. And if (an even bigger if) Celtic was / became the lingua franca of the Megalithic Superhighway. Barry Cunliffe has the West Coast as Celtic speaking by 3000BC in Britain Begins. While he is probably not always right about everything, he is - in my opinion - probably Britain's leading living archaeologist. We ignore him at our cost and we should test his ideas thoroughly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post

    This sample from Boattini’s:

    DYS390=25
    DYS391=12
    DYS388=14
    DYS389I=12
    DYS448=20
    H4=12
    DYS438=13
    DYS635=24

    And here are the Zohrab's values from Armenia:
    N9165 Zohrab b Erevan, Armenia ca 1580 d New Julfa 1620 Armenia R1b1a2a1a1
    14 24 15 10 10-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 24 14 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 16 17 36-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

    In the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" there is this only R-L11 and no R-L51, whereas Italy had probably the highest percentage of this haplogroup. I agree that probably R-L11 (but there is the possibility that they are all R-DF100) is linked with Germans, but not that R-L51 and R-L11 came from Armenia. All this could be the witness that the Armenian R-L23 came from the Balkans (and before from Italy) with the first migrations of Indo-Europeans, but the subclades didn't reach the Caucasus".

    I remark: the Italian sample of Boattini has the highest variance so far known of an R-L11* all over the world.
    Thanks Rathna,
    I had seen those posts through google and found them interesting.
    With my limited knowledge of the DNA...... how much can we tell from just the two samples of Boattini and Zohrab? Are they part of a pattern found in Italy and Armenia?

  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    Hi Mike, thanks for your response and questions. You say you are not an expert...but when it comes to understanding DNA I see you as Barcelona playing in the World Supercup - and I am Hyde United playing in the Northern Premier League (that is soccer to all of you in the States...all you need to know is Barcelona are very very good ...and Hyde United......not). So I was sort of hoping you may have some creative ideas.....

    Good question ....I was hoping you could answer that. Ballardgen posted that as intro to their closed facebook group - so I can not see the discussion or the data behind it. They also seem to suggest that L11* migrated to Central England and the Alps at a very much later date. They could be right. Or, L11* could have reached England very early - e.g. along with I DNA people when the builders of the long barrows who first arrived (from Jutland?) in the early Neolithic.

    Putting variance on hold for the moment - I was wondering if there was a pattern of STR markers in Baltic and Alpine L11 that could suggest P312 is most closely related to/descends from one or the other. (Can I get access to such raw data anywhere?) That is based on an assumption that an L11 split could have occurred to the East and one branch of L11 moved North to the South Baltic and one East towards the Alps. (I have long thought that the Northern route was the route where U106 spun off - and where lactase persistence got so embedded in to the west coast R1b's.) However, after Alan's deeper think about beakers thread I am open minded to the Alpine route.

    Yes. And P312 and even early U106 could still both be early / proto Celtic speakers if they arrived via the Northern route. And if (an even bigger if) Celtic was / became the lingua franca of the Megalithic Superhighway. Barry Cunliffe has the West Coast as Celtic speaking by 3000BC in Britain Begins. While he is probably not always right about everything, he is - in my opinion - probably Britain's leading living archaeologist. We ignore him at our cost and we should test his ideas thoroughly.
    Just a word of caution about L11*, as its presence may be a red herring of sorts. From the 500 male samples from the "Genome of the Netherlands" study:

    L11+...........n=270
    ........U106+...........n=165
    ........P312+...........n=93
    ........DF100+.........n=12

    So, previously L11(xU106,P312) in the Netherlands is not a diverse group of L11* and the study tells us that with the inclusion of DF100, true L11* frequency in that study is ZERO. L11(xU106,P312) in the ht35 project looks to be WAMH-ish.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 10-22-2013 at 02:43 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    To add to my own post, the lone unresolved L11* sample from the 1000 Genomes Project (HG00148 from Kent, UK) and the two unresolved L11* from the Personal Genomes Project (PGP45 from Georgia, USA and PGP124 from the USA) were also DF100+. So, of all the L11* full Y-sequences to date, there has been no true L11*.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 10-22-2013 at 02:54 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  13. #19
    Of course I'd be curious to test for DF100 that sample of R-L11* from Boattini's, and to answer also to Net Down G5L I'd say that between the L11* from Pistoia and the Armenian haplotype there could be also 5000 (or more) years to a MRCA.

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  15. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    To add to my own post, the lone unresolved L11* sample from the 1000 Genomes Project (HG00148 from Kent, UK) and the two unresolved L11* from the Personal Genomes Project (PGP45 from Georgia, USA and PGP124 from the USA) were also DF100+. So, of all the L11* full Y-sequences to date, there has been no true L11*.
    But what does this mean? They may be a subclade of L11* like Z2103/Z2105* is of L23* parallel to L51 etc. The interesting thing would be to find some L11+ which is DF100- or probably to ascertain the fact that L11* doesn't exist anymore like L23* P297* and infinite others.

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