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Thread: The Puzzle of West Eurasian and SSA relationship

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Dude that's enormously wrong. What have back migration of eurasians in africa have to do with north africans and sub-saharian africans being related. Early European share similar genetic markers with modern Yoruba, San markers wich means that those 30'000 - 40'000 years old early europeans had close affinity with a common ancestor of modern african. No genetician or even serious blogger ever argue about this. You seem to think that having 1% of sub-saharians dna should do something morally to humans or i dont really where you want to go. You need to understand the following. Just make a little scenario, in 30'000BC a little group of Africans with a subclade of haplogroup E goes to Arabian Peninsula / Middle-East and stays here for like 20'000 years. 10'000 BC if those same people didn't have constant african gene flow, but had eurasian gene flow, they would lost probably most of their ancestral african markers. Genotype and Phenotype are too different things. You can look very european with all physical characteristics and have 10% of sub-saharian dna, what's the point you want to prove? What have hypothetic ancient african ancestors for an european would implying to you?
    1 - I dont fully understand what you are trying to say.
    2 - I dont understand how you could read what I wrote.....and give the response i THINK you are trying to give.
    3 - May i suggest you read my initial post in this thread, as well as read my posts and the general discussion in the thread that i linked. This should provide some context for the comment you replied to.

  2. #12
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    the Yoruba people have ancestry from a "Basal Human" lineage, if there was shared ancestry between Natufians and West Africans, wouldn't admixture with Basal Humans dilute the affinity between them ?

    f4(Natufian, EHG; Yoruba, Chimp) = 0.00029 , Z=0.7

    f4(Natufian, Kostenki14; Yoruba, Chimp) = 0.00120 , Z=2.3

    f4(Natufian, Iran_N; Yoruba, Chimp) = 0.00036 , Z=0.8



    admixture with Basal Humans confused the stats with the shared branch between Basal Humans and Basal Africa ? right ?

    or maybe I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

  3. #13
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    My guess that once we have prehistoric samples from Central and West Africa then we will be able to detect West Eurasian admixture in modern Sub Saharan Africans in significant amounts. My feelings that the E haplogroup has a West Eurasian origin and it came back to Africa with a pre Basal Eurasian like expansion possibly predate any known migrations to Africa by history. There's also a high chance that a ghost population existed and formed a chain between Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus and this group could be one of the main ancestor of modern West Africans.
    Last edited by giorgio; 08-23-2018 at 01:09 PM.

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  5. #14
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    A ghost population contributing to both West Africans and West Eurasians, in the same sense Ancient North Eurasians are to Native Americans and West Eurasians.

    but due to West Africans admixture with "Basal Humans" that genetic affinity is masked. similarly to this case:

    f4(Anatolia_N, Papuan; Ust_Ishim, Chimp) Z_score = -0.2

    due to archaic admixture in Papuans, the affinity of Ust_Ishim with Papuans (because of Basal Eurasian ancestry in Anatolia_N) is diluted, this should be significantly negative (<-3) in other cases, when you replace Papuan with Han for example.

    If anyone thinks I'm mistaken, please tell me, because this is the theory I have right now.

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    In that case West Africans should be closer to West Eurasians compared to East Eurasians, since the archaic admix would pull equally away from both, e.g. you should have significantly positive f4(West, East; African, Chimp). But I don't think this is the case.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by giorgio View Post
    My guess that once we have prehistoric samples from Central and West Africa then we will be able to detect West Eurasian admixture in modern Sub Saharan Africans in significant amounts. My feelings that the E haplogroup has a West Eurasian origin and it came back to Africa with a pre Basal Eurasian like expansion possibly predate any known migrations to Africa by history. There's also a high chance that a ghost population existed and formed a chain between Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus and this group could be one of the main ancestor of modern West Africans.
    That's impossible. Eurasia is lacking most clades of E and has the lowest frequency of E. Eurasia was clearly colonized by E men.

  10. #17
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    Modern Africans lie between The Hunters and Gatherers Mbuti, Hadza, Khoi and the Sun and the Jarawa of Adamanese Islands .

    AHG carry Y DNA A00 and B while the Jarawa carry C and D while the Vast Majority of Africans carry E .

    Natufians carry Y DNA E C and T . Looking at the topography of Africa and distribution of Y DNA one gets a clear Picture of 3 distinctive groups and their occupation. The two branches of E
    E1b1a ( predominantly Agriculturalist ) Inhabit the Most Arable part of the African Continent
    E1b1b ( Predominantly Pastrolist groups inhabiting Area of low rain fall and less humidity )
    Y Dna T which is prevalent in Horn of Africa Pastrolist .
    These three population groups might have arised at the end of HG / stone Age to the ERA of Agriculture and livestock ( Early Agro pastellist and Farmers)

    The rise of Agriculture and Animal domestication can eaasly be collocated to the rise of Y DNA E1 , Settled Farmers need predicability , Predicability means moving to Area where of moderate weather and sufficient rainfall the distribution of Pastrol Y DNA and Agricultural Y DNA is Africa can explain the rise of Modern African as Early Farmers and Herders and their distribution along the southern edges of Europe , the near East and Africa.
    Nataruk in Turkana County Kenya and Jebel Sahaba in Sudan are evidence of Human violence that occurred 10,000 years agao . Suggesting a conflict based of interest probably territorial interests of People who had moved away from HG to Early forms of Private / Communal property Ownership like Land and hence forth a resource motivated violence .
    No DNA Jury is out yet o this Massacres and we still don't know who this people war just as much we don't know who the Stone age people of The Eburran industry which dates between 13,000 and 9,000 BC in East Africa, was formerly known as the "Kenya Capsian" due to similarities in the stone blade shapes. We still have no DNA and sometimes i tend to read ill motive when it comes to Establish a data for Ancient African DNA ..maybe the Idea of a white superior race has really never left the minds of science , and we still might not be able to have a fact and a truth based science of integrity . Even the study of Science and DNA is biased or Racial Perception and misses the bigger picture of Humanity.

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  12. #18
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    On a mildly related note, does anyone have a hypothesis as to why Iran_N is so distant to Taforalt?

    F3 outgroup
    row, column (Taforalt), MbutiDG
    AG3 0.189801
    Anzick-Kennewick 0.184563
    Barcin_N 0.204931
    Bichon 0.199267
    EHG 0.19438
    ElMiron 0.19875
    GoyetQ116-1 0.19839
    Iran_N 0.184485
    Kostenki14 0.190795
    Kotias 0.191082
    Levant_N 0.213552
    MA1 0.189966
    Natufian 0.219495
    Ust_Ishim 0.178671
    Vestonice16 0.198339

    The only pop farther is Ust_Ishim
    Even Anzick-Kennewick, being 60-70% East-Eurasian or so are exactly even to Iran_N
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  14. #19
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    I just want to preface this with...

    F3 outgroup nmonte (row, column, MbutiDG)

    Taforalt
    "Natufian" 52.25
    "Oase1" 22.45
    "Mota" 14.85
    "Malawi_Fingira_2500BP" 10.45
    "distance%=0.2249 / distance=0.002249"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Levant_N, Iran_N, Kotias, MA1, Anzick_Kennewick, Iron_Gates_HG, Kostenki14, Ust_Ishim

    - Natufian as primary source, of course
    - SSA, sure thing
    - Oase???
    It has the property of being equally related to all crown Eurasians, and less related to those with basal Eurasian.
    That seems like a really difficult thing to pop up spuriously, especially in such high quantity.

    Can't use Oase for qpadm, too low snps + too much neanderthal
    I wish I had Tianyuan so I could throw that in the right pops and use Ust_Ishim in place of Oase.

    Well, pulled Ust out of the columns and replaced with Ami + Australian

    Taforalt
    "Natufian" 53.4
    "Oase1" 20.9
    "Mota" 12.8
    "Malawi_Fingira_2500BP" 12.35
    "Ust_Ishim" 0.55
    "distance%=0.2745 / distance=0.002745"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Levant_N, Iran_N, Kotias, MA1, Anzick_Kennewick, Iron_Gates_HG, Kostenki14, Ami, Australian

    Taforalt chooses Oase, but removing it from rows doesn't really kill the fit

    Taforalt
    "Natufian" 54.9
    "Mota" 17.1
    "Ust_Ishim" 16.7
    "Malawi_Fingira_2500BP" 11.3
    "distance%=0.3334 / distance=0.003334"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Levant_N, Iran_N, Kotias, MA1, Anzick_Kennewick, Iron_Gates_HG, Kostenki14, Ami, Australian

    That configuration probably wouldn't be too good for qpadm either. Natufian is the limiting factor at 450k snps or so.
    Ancients are all 1233k panel, HumanOrigins2068 (where Ami + Australian are sourced from) are a 616k subset.
    So would have 225k at most, not even accounting for the other lefts + rights which would probably drop it to the low 100s.
    Last edited by Kale; 08-24-2018 at 07:29 PM.
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  16. #20
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    Well they are two important wave of Immigrations that are important to understanding Modern humans.
    The first wave is of Early humans leaving Africa .
    The second wave is on Humans heading West gain through two roots that brach in central Asia .
    the first back flow moves up north and divides one heads West depending on Continental Europe from the north and the Other heads East entering north America.

    The other Brach moves south and branches in two two . One heads to the south east and Australia, the other heads south west in to India and further North West in to the middle east .

    They who North West continental people head south and south east and meet the India sub groups heading East. The two population mix again with each other and with local groups and then head before the group breaks again with some moving North West in To Europe and other heading south west in to Arabia and North east Africa.


    My guess is there are four important points of modern Human dispersal Africa, Middle Asian and the Middle East again , These Humans met and interbreed with other Archaic Humans on their travels acquired new traits like skin tones
    Skin tone survival adaptation) skin color has nothing to o with UV it a pure prey protection adoption mechanism Animal adot to camouflage with their Environment . A black bear on a sheet of snow is easy to spot and kill , just as much as white polar bear in the woods, and the same case applies to humans , you don't want to be charcoal black in snow white northern Siberia , you want to be the Hunter and not the hunted . So our Dna is like all organism is geared towards survival and hence it behaves like a parasite that needs a host. Once in the host it copies cuts and pastes multiplies its self and creates different types of the same species according to the Environment and best Survival traits .

    Hence humans as a species are always selected in best survival traits relative to Environment , So a population could be proximal yet so different depending on the Path and journey of their predecessor prior to proximal point of convergence . One they mix re editing ,preselection is then done again for best survival traits

    Hence Yellow sand desert =yellow brown skin dark hair. Humid Rain forest , Charcoal dark smooth skin, Icy north Pale skin body hair,. This are Archaic survival traits that are still saved our DNA hard ware. They will change over time as survival traits are re organized and priorities are set up afresh.

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