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Thread: Genetic variation of Armenians and GEDMatch results to show this variation?

  1. #11
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    I meant to say that the Armenians assimilated into Lebanese Christian society.

    I am definetely aware that the French-like signal in Lebanon is strong in Lebanese Muslims as oppossed to Christians.

    I never connected most of the Steppe in the Lebanese to the Armenians - but to movements like the Mitanni which brought R1a-Z93 F1345 to the Levant.

    As for Armenians - it was all conjecture. The Armenians south of Lake Van and to the east of Kus and Sivas and Deir Ezzor death triangle did suffer somewhat less in comparison to those more towards the Trebizond and towards central Anatolia. I would have assumed those to have been more Caucasus-shifted (Georgian-like) whislt not to the degree of Trebizond Greeks and Turks of course.

    I had in mind to look (in vain) for Armenian kits from Nagorno-Karabakh, but realized that most Armenians there today may have migrated from Iran and other regions and don't represent the old Armenian population of that region who form a minority in that region?.

    One way one can do things is by doing an alle sharing analysis between Armenians and Azeris and mask the later admix in Azeris to get an idea of what the original Armenians of the southeastern Caucasus were like.

    There are Armenians in Georgia - I think they may be relics of what I had in mind for a more Caucasian-shifted Armenian pop of eastern Anatolia since many did flee from western Armenia into already Armenian muncipalities in Georgia.

    Besides - most diaspora in the Middle East are bound to be from eastern Armenia. Several Armenians I know in the Arab countries have told me of eastern Anatolian origins.

    I don't know of any kits however. If someone could share the kit of an Armenian from Nagorno-Karabakh, Georgia, or in the Middle Eastern diaspora - it would be great.
    Last edited by Asrafael.; 08-10-2018 at 03:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrafael. View Post

    Compare that to contemporary Armenians who look eerily similar to Anatolian Assyrians (which could be due to intermarriage with Armenians) - and it's likely that a complete or at least heavy-to-significant replacement must have taken place in Armenia. Whether it was more recent or because of other factors involved in the earlier Armenian ethnogenises I don't know.

    But it must be emphasised nonetheless that contemporary Armenians are a transitional people on the fault between the southern Caucasus and Mesopotamia. Which is exactly why they cluster with Caucasian Jewish populations who mostly have backgrounds in Babylonian Jewry.

    And to be fair in my earlier comparison of Assyrians with Armenians - Assyrians are ridicously north-shifted compared to what you would expect of a Semitic and even Mesopotamian population (which geographically makes sense - look where the Nineveh plains are located).
    Armenians show far more variation than Assyrians auDNA wise. Assyrians who have not lived close to Armenians like those from Northern Iraq are genetically no different than other Assyrians. Western Armenians on the other hand often get Assyrian as first population with Gedmatch and differ quite significantly from Eastern Armenians. Assyrians also are closer to other Eastern Aramaic speakers such as the Kurdish Jews and Mandeans than to Armenians.
    Also since when is Iran_N/CHG inpit considered Northern?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Should it not have been the other way around? The Armenians who were genocided were mostly those who lived in eastern Turkey, who would have belonged to the western Armenian branches. I cannot imagine these people were those with more Caucasus or even NE European input.
    It's exactly that. A study on Armenians that came out in late 2015 showed that there are two separate clusters of Armenians - Western Armenians (from the Eastern Anatolia area) and Eastern Armenians (present day Armenia). They found in their study that only 33% of modern-day Armenians belong to the Western Armenian cluster, while 67% of modern-day Armenians belong to the Eastern Armenian cluster.



    Quote Originally Posted by Asrafael. View Post
    Armenians are not really Caucasian strictu sensu in regards to genetics. Alot of their similarity is also the result of Bronze Age Balkan -> Urartu migration of the proto-Armen and subsequent merger between them and a likely heavily Caucasian population - that is, going off Chalcolithic Armenian samples, but depending on whether the Hurro-Urartians and Urartians in particular were Mesopotamian-like or not.
    Why do studies seem to suggest the opposite then? All studies on Caucasian populations - including Armenians, have concluded that Armenians have remained relatively isolated since the Bronze-age and have suggested that Mesoptamian like admixture in Caucasian populations is ancient and predates the formation of modern day ethnic groups. Mesoptamian like admixture existed in many ancient North Caucasian cultures such as the Maykop (with the exception of the Maykop from the steppe, which was Yamnaya-like but with excess steppe) and Kura-Araxes seem to resemble modern Armenians and Georgians very well.

    Our results show that at the time of the eponymous grave mound of Maykop, the North Caucasus piedmont region was genetically connected to the south. Even without direct ancient DNA data from northern Mesopotamia, the new genetic evidence suggests an increased assimilation of Chalcolithic individuals from Iran, Anatolia and Armenia and those of the Eneolithic Caucasus during 6000-4000 calBCE23, and thus likely also intensified cultural connections. Within this sphere of interaction, it is possible that cultural influences and continuous subtle gene flow from the south formed the basis of Maykop (Fig. 4; Supplementary Table 10). In fact, the Maykop phenomenon was long understood as the terminus of the expansion of South Mesopotamian civilisations in the 4th millennium BCE11, 12, 51 562 . It has been further suggested that along with the cultural and demographic influence the key
    technological innovations that had revolutionised the late 4th 564 millennium BCE in western Asia had ultimately also spread to Europe52 . An earlier connection in the late 5th millennium BCE, however, allows speculations about an alternative archaeological scenario: was the cultural exchange mutual and did e.g. metal rich areas such as the Caucasus contribute substantially to the development and transfer of these innovations
    .

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...22347.full.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrafael. View Post
    I never connected most of the Steppe in the Lebanese to the Armenians - but to movements like the Mitanni which brought R1a-Z93 F1345 to the Levant.
    Steppe ancestry in the Lebanese is quite negligble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post
    I think you are also forgetting that a large portion of Eastern Turkey (where Armenians inhabited) technically lies within the Caucasus as well. Armenians are not some population from Anatolia and Mesopotamia with no historical connections to the Caucasus mountains, a large portion of them have inhabited the caucasus for ages. Modern day Armenia is not simply a "creation to give people who were evacuated from their homelands a new homeland." Modern day Armenia was also a part of historical Armenia, too. And much of the parts of Turkey where Armenians come from lies within the ranges of the Caucasus as well. Armenians are definitely a Caucasian people - both historically and genetically.
    Can you possibly show me studies that highlight these genetic differences? Maybe some PCA plots and Gedmatch results? Most genetic tests from Armenians that I've seen seemingly has a western Armenian bias. I understand that there are 3 main clusters of Armenians: eastern, western and cherkessohay(circassia) yet I think most of what Gedmatch has isn't representative of the genetic reality and differences of the Armenians.

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    I'd still like to learn more about our genetic variation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    As we know, Armenia was historically much larger, and mostly further south, than it is today. Modern "Armenia" is a small sliver of the land on which Armenians used to live, and is the northernmost extent of their historical land.

    Therefore, it makes sense that many people living in Armenia today, have ancestry originating much further south. Armenia was essentially created to give a homeland to people who had been pushed out of, and ethnically cleansed from, their native homelands. Therefore, it is likely that many Armenians are genetically not so much "Caucasian" but much closer to their Arab and Persian neighbors from further south, as well as to Pontic Greeks.

    Does anyone have examples of Armenian GEDMatch results? Are there Armenians who could be genetically mistaken for, or could be considered a subset of, a Levantine population? What about the other end of the spectrum? Or are most closer to Iranians and Afghans?

    With all due respect, this is an ignorant thing to claim Sik. Modern day Armenia+Artsakh has always been inhabited by Armenians since time immemorial. My roots lie in Armenia today. "Armenia" as you so eloquently put, was not some mere shelter that the current inhabitants decided to occupy to escape Turkish onslaught. No sir. As a matter of fact Armenia already had a population of 1 million people during the events of the Armenian genocide, and this isn't counting the Armenians that formed a majority in Tbilisi who also lived under the Russian empire. Modern day Armenia is predominantly comprised of natives with a minority that can trace most of their roots to western Armenia. The majority of the descendants of western Armenians in fact live in the diasporas of the west(USA, France) and some in the middle east ie Lebanon and Syria.

    Also, if you pay attention to that map then you will realize that modern day Armenia, and the historical Armenian cities of Ani, Artvin and Ardahan(modern day northeast Turkey) comprise a significant chunk of the historical Armenian homeland(that's at least 40%). So no, your conjectures are very incorrect my friend.

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