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Thread: Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 in West Asia: Special Investigation (Vaźdhya)

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    Post Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 in West Asia: Special Investigation (Vaźdhya)

    The past two weeks have been dedicated towards this fascinating genealogy topic. From my blog, Vaźdhya;

    Introduction

    Y-DNA Haplogroup Q is defined by the M242 marker and is upstream to Haplogroup P-M45, making it the sister Haplogroup of R-M207, which populates much of West Eurasia. According to the Genographic Project, Haplogroup Q-M242 is between 15-20,000 years old, with the location invariably being placed around North Eurasia.

    The frequency of Haplogroup Q largely matches the migration path outlined in the maps shown opposite. However, the presence of haplogroup Q in more southwestern portions of Asia has sparked the curiosity of genealogists and observers alike. In current literature, the presence of Haplogroup Q1a2-M25 specifically in Iran is cited as "Central Asian" influence. [1]

    In an attempt to conclusively uncover the origins of Haplogroup Q-M242 in West Asia, the Y-STR haplotype variation of West, Central and South Asian Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 are visualised and analysed with genealogical tools.
    Please check the Spoiler for the Phylogenetic Trees;

     



    Interesting part on the lone Assyrian Y-DNA Q;

    A comment on Assyrian Q-M242

    Although the number of STR markers tested do not allow their inclusion into this research piece, I took the liberty of comparing the sole Assyrian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q-M242 individual from the FTDNA Assyrian Heritage DNA Project to elaborate on their paternal ancestor's ultimate origins.

    The Assyrian people are a Neo-Aramaic-speaking ethnic minority native to the land intersecting between Turkey, Iran and Iraq as well as the Mesopotamian basin. Modern Assyrians have (due to their Christian faith and recent historical events) practiced endogamous relationships, making them a genetically distinct group minimally affected by demic movements in the surrounding populations.

    The Assyrian Y-DNA Q belongs to the Q1b1a-L245 subclade. As we have observed already, haplogroup Q1b-M378 tends to have a distribution governed more by geography with deeper cluster branches, implying greater diversification time in a given region.

    At present, based on the available 10 overlapping STR's, the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 individual matches Tur_yQP_3 best with a one-step mutation (9/10), placing them deep within Cluster C, the only one without a region-specific distribution. This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more.

    Conclusion

    Due to the limitations described above, the identification of clusters is more relevant based on their geographic spread. The MRCA calculations shown are simply an extremely rough estimate at the age of a cluster.

    However (and fortunately once more), it is very clear that some clusters are determined by geography rather than the sort of "genealogical boon" observed in a few (e.g. Q1a Cluster C's extensive branching despite being young relative to the others).

    If one takes the MRCA calculations as a very rough approximation, whilst considering a cluster's ability to supercede regional boundaries, one can estimate that 75.4% (40/53) of the Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1a-MEH2 and 31.4% (11/35) of Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1b-M378 in West, Central and South Asia can be attributed to the Turkish migrations.

    In summary, Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1a-MEH2 ... is a convincing Medieval Central Asian Turkish genetic marker based specifically on its' ability to form multi-ethnic clusters in regions with a historical Turkish connection. Q1b-M378... generally displays enough regionalisation and cluster depth to make such an association doubtful at best, with the sole exception being those who belong to the a genetic group highlighted in this entry (Cluster C) with DYS385a=14 and DYS448=20.

    South Central Asian Q1b-M378 appears to be autochthonous whereas any form of Q1a-MEH2 in the region has a strong association with regions intimately connected with the Medieval Turks. The Anatolian highlands and the Iranian plateau, however, appear to be a complicated mix between the two based on the lack of clear distinctions.

    The slim presence of Haplogroup Q in India on the other hand, as far as the current data indicates, is almost entirely of Medieval Turkic input, although the Subcontinent's position as a geographic nexus (much like Iran and Turkey) certainly open the possibility for exotic para-haplogroups to also exist there.
    Looking forward to everyone's comments and/or feedback.

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    Great thread. Nice way to begin.

    Which samples are of definitive Turkic origin? The Q-L245 subclade has been previously dubbed the "Ashkenazi" Q1b branch. On the FTDNA Q1b page, men derived for Q-L245 consist of one or more individuals from the following groups (may not be exclusive): Jewish (Ashkenazi and Mizrahi), NW Europeans (Dutch, Irish and German), Armenian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Assyrian. Marko Heinila, I believe based on his most recent work, dates the Q-L245 TMRCA to 2600 years. Right about the time of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire. Perhaps a foreign element was introduced into the ME population at that time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Great thread. Nice way to begin.

    Which samples are of definitive Turkic origin?
    Thank you very much.

    On the Q1b-M378 phylogenetic tree specifically, Trk_1 is of ethnic Turkish background from Gokcumen et al.'s Biological ancestries, kinship connections, and projected identities in four central Anatolian settlements: insights from culturally contextualized genetic anthropology.

    The Q-L245 subclade has been previously dubbed the "Ashkenazi" Q1b branch. On the FTDNA Q1b page, men derived for Q-L245 consist of one or more individuals from the following groups (may not be exclusive): Jewish (Ashkenazi and Mizrahi), NW Europeans (Dutch, Irish and German), Armenian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Assyrian. Marko Heinila, I believe based on his most recent work, dates the Q-L245 TMRCA to 2600 years. Right about the time of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire. Perhaps a foreign element was introduced into the ME population at that time?
    SNP's with such resolution are always going to offer more specific inferences than what can be done via barely a dozen STR's. However, after reviewing the Y-DNA Q Project once more (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults), I do wonder whether sampling (and perhaps selection?) bias has reared it's head in this discussion. Notice that there are absolutely no L245- individuals present in the project. Negative marker folks can sometimes be as useful as those who are positive.

    2600 years ago coincides with the rise of the Median and (shortly afterwards) Achaemanid Persian empires. As far as I can recall, the only sort of foreign intrusion into West Asia during this time was the flight of the Cimmerians, shortly followed by the Scythians, both traversing through the Caucasus mountains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humata View Post
    Thank you very much.
    Of course.

    I checked a couple of other projects, and found a few L245- men, and a couple of L245+ men. Hopefully a study will test for it in the future.


    L245- 182773 Kadom Tatar
    L245- 26360 Bukhara, Uzbekistan
    L245- 193005 Kazakhstan
    L245+ 45731 Jewish surname
    L245+ 196332 Jewish surname

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

    L245- N14041 Pakistan

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp


    Yes. I agree. An ancient Iranian link is certainly possible.

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    Great read, thank you!

    I'm especially interested in the Georgian individual. I believe, that's kit #202443? He seems like a real outlier. Do you think he could still be connected to Turkic migrations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kartveli View Post
    Great read, thank you!

    I'm especially interested in the Georgian individual. I believe, that's kit #202443? He seems like a real outlier. Do you think he could still be connected to Turkic migrations?
    Thank you for your comment; regarding the Georgian Q, based on the 16-17 STR's I analysed, I don't think that's likely to be the case. Clear STR clusters with unique DYS combinations in each were formed in groups that had individuals across several territories (particularly with Y-DNA Q1a).

    I would propose, in their case, their Y-DNA Q belongs to a far-removed branch that reached the Caucasus via demic diffusion at some point in time. The distance relative to the others on my phylogenetic tree would imply it is prehistoric.

    Alternatively, it was brought to the Caucasus via other, earlier means. The Huns would be one suggestion. As would the Scythians, given Y-DNA C* was found in one of the South Siberian Andronovo remains. There are quite a few viable possibilities, in my opinion, which can only be elucidated with further data.


    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Of course.

    I checked a couple of other projects, and found a few L245- men, and a couple of L245+ men. Hopefully a study will test for it in the future.


    L245- 182773 Kadom Tatar
    L245- 26360 Bukhara, Uzbekistan
    L245- 193005 Kazakhstan
    L245+ 45731 Jewish surname
    L245+ 196332 Jewish surname

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp

    L245- N14041 Pakistan

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp


    Yes. I agree. An ancient Iranian link is certainly possible.
    My friend, this is the reason why I had to exclude the Assyrian from the primary analysis. 10 STR's simply isn't enough to make a firm call. SNP's, undoubtedly, surpass STR predictions in terms of usefulness. Particularly in this case. Although, I am curious how the age of 2600ybp came about...

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    Dear Humata!
    I read with great interest to your paper. It provoked a lively response on the forum MolGen.Org. It is more interesting for me because I am belong to the haplogroup Q1b. I am L245+ 196332 (who is specified above).
    It would be very interesting to exchange data and thoughts on Q1b with you.

    The peculiarity of this haplogroup is the difficulty in identifying the ethnicity and origin. You gave as example the Armenian haplotype, which you have previously been identified as Turkish. In fact, I know of no one really Turkish Q1b. All known Q1b haplotypes (marked as "from Turkey") belong to ethnic Armenians (## 173902, 178717, E5340, M6760, 191379).
    Although the haplogroup Q1b was detected in Turkey at several studies.
    Gokcumen, Biological Ancestries, Kinship Connections, and Projected Identities in Four Central Anatolian Settlements: Insights from Culturally Contextualized Genetic Anthropology (2011):
    Gocmenkoy had a preponderance of paternal haplogroups
    traditionally associated with Central and East Asia.
    Haplogroup L, which was confined to this settlement, comprised
    more than half of the haplotypes there. This lineage,
    which is relatively rare (4.2%) in the contemporary Turkish
    population (Cinnio˘glu et al. 2004), has been observed
    mainly among populations residing in the Indian subcontinent
    (Sengupta et al. 2006). Haplogroup Q was the second
    most frequent lineage, comprising∼13% of the haplogroups
    in this settlement. The origin of this haplogroup appears to
    be central Siberia, from which it later spread across Eurasia;
    its distribution now roughly extends geographically across
    Altaic-speaking regions (Wells et al. 2001).C.Cinnio˘glu and
    colleagues (2004) also reported that ten Turkish individuals
    (1.9%) belonged to haplogroup Q, and haplotypes from this
    lineage have also been identified in the Near East (Zalloua
    et al. 2008). Overall, both L and Q are found mainly in
    eastern Eurasia, and the high frequency of these haplogroups
    in Gocmenkoy is consistent with the self-described Central
    Asian–Turkic ancestry of its inhabitants.
    Given these data, it is possible that these haplogroups
    may represent the nomadic Turkic groups that immigrated
    into Anatolia from Central Asia. However, this argument
    fails to explain the lack of haplogroup L in the population of
    Kizilyer region, which also claims strong Turkic ancestry.
    Therefore, even though the Afsars were one of the main
    tribes historically known to have migrated into Anatolia
    from Central Asia (Cahen 1968), it is difficult to directly
    associate haplogroup L with the larger Turkic migration(s).
    The lack of data from other Afsar groups in Anatolia and
    elsewhere currently makes it impossible at this time to trace
    the observed Gocmenkoy L haplotypes back to Central Asia
    or to any other geographic region
    There are #173631. Which despite his surname is not English knight He is from Iran, his ancestors lived near the Isfahan.
    Many questions. Many mysteries.
    Ex oriente lux
    Hidden Content

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    DMXX,
    Do you know the subclades of the Arab and Iranian individuals in cluster B and C?
    Are all these individuals from FTDNA projects?

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