Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 65

Thread: R-Z2103 & Early R1b, an Enigma of Western Europe

  1. #1
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    893
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    R-Z2103 & Early R1b, an Enigma of Western Europe

    Finding the R-Z2103 subclade in western Europe is rare and unexpected. Wasn’t it called the Armenian Modal Haplotype or ht35 characterized by DYS393=12? How did R-Z2103 end up in Martaizé, France (Terriot) or Newport Wales (Llewellyn) and when? The purpose of this tread is to explore how R-Z2103 and other early R1b subclades ended up in Western Europe and dare I say, the American Colonies.
    The Border Reiver project took a hard look at “HT35” around 2005 and come up with a hypothesis.
    This webpage is part of a collaboration between James V. Elliott, David B. Strong, and others in researching the origins of DYS393=12 as it occurs along the Anglo-Scottish Border region. Our hypothesis: Some of us have roots in a West Asian population in an identifiable subclade of R1b, which somehow got to the Anglo-Scottish border area and on to Ulster.
    The key to the Haplotype 35 hypothesis lies in establishing the area from, say, Lancashire to Galloway as a convergence zone for multiple groups with an ultimately eastern European or Eurasian origin. The Turks, Greeks and Sarmatians who served in the Roman Army; Normans descended from Alans, Visigoths, Sephardim, etc.; and, of course, the Norwegian Vikings. Probably all of these groups had a present-day influence, and each of them was in their own time, no doubt, compounded from multiple Y-DNA haplogroups even 2,000 years ago. If we can correlate a relatively high frequency of Haplotype 35 with equally elevated frequencies of, say, J2 or I1a or R1a and/or other potentially eastern European haplogroups or sub-clades, it seems that would only help our argument. On the other hand, if it turns out that Haplotype 35 shows up most often only with AMH or other Haplotype R1b's, then skeptics could easily claim that the "Haplotype 35" occurrences were just coincidental, due entirely to genetic drift or divergence from the "AMH".
    The Border Reiver project did a great job with what they had to work with. We benefit from a lot more data, snp testing with a far better phylogenetic tree and some really smart people on this forum. We know that DYS393=12 is far to limiting for R-Z2103 with examples of DYS393=11, 12, 13 and maybe even 14. Another advantage to looking at Z2103 in Western Europe and in particular Ireland and Great Britain, are some really good surname projects. It would be nice to leverage all the surname work and extensive testing know-how from the Isles to learn more about this enigma of the west, R-Z2103.
    The reality of R-Z2103 in western Europe probably can’t be answered with just the Romans or Normans.
    How did R-Z2103 & Early R1b subclades end up in the Western Europe?

    Here are some links to the Border Reivers past work.
    Border Reivers DNA Study
    2008 Border Reivers Update
    Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35)
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-24-2013 at 11:55 PM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

     JärvinenT (01-28-2014),  kostop (11-05-2013),  MTANGELONE (12-15-2015)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,109
    Sex
    Location
    Ontario
    Ethnicity
    Yamna/Bell Beaker/Sarmat
    Nationality
    Unknown, to be confirmed.
    Y-DNA
    R1b>BY593
    mtDNA
    U5b2a2

    Some have suggested Alan/Iranian units. I'm still trying to figure out if a warrior with R1b wearing a dress & playing the bagpipes, in the mountains and plateau's can be related to ancient Vlachs/ Armenians/Anatolians.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMIlBIVJYNs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_LHInZzHEc
    Current R1b samples found in -Yamnaya-3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo-3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Vucedol-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Bell Beaker-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka-2700—2100 BC, Scythian-9th century BC up until the 4th century AD, Sarmatian-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Silesian For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (10-24-2013)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,209
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+ L2+
    mtDNA
    H4a1

    United States of America Italy Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Finding the R-Z2103 subclade in western Europe is rare and unexpected. Wasn’t it called the Armenian Modal Haplotype or ht35, characterized by DYS393=12? How did R-Z2103 end up in Martaizé, France (Terriot) or Newport Wales (Llewellyn) and when? The purpose of this tread is to explore how R-Z2103 and other early R1b subclades ended up in Western Europe and dare I say, the American Colonies.
    The Border Reiver project took a hard look at “HT35” around 2005 and come up with a hypothesis.


    The Border Reiver project did a great job with what they had to work with. We benefit from a lot more data, snp testing with a far better phylogenetic tree and some really smart people on this forum. We know that DYS393=12 is far to limiting for R-Z2103 with examples of DYS393=11, 12, 13 and maybe even 14. Another advantage to looking at Z2103 in Western Europe and in particular Ireland and Great Britain, are some really good surname projects. It would be nice to leverage all the surname work and extensive testing know-how from the Isles to learn more about this enigma of the west, R-Z2103.
    The reality of R-Z2103 in western Europe probably can’t be answered with just the Romans or Normans.
    How did R-Z2103 & Early R1b subclades end up in the Western Europe?

    Here are some links to the Border Reivers past work.
    Border Reivers DNA Study
    2008 Border Reivers Update
    Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35)
    If Z2103 is as rare in Britain as it seems to be, it may not have been a part of a major migration. Instead, it may be the result of unrelated Z2103 men migrating into Britain over a long period of time, perhaps thousands of years. Is there anything in their STR that makes them different than continental Z2103?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (10-24-2013),  Mikewww (10-24-2013),  Silesian (10-25-2013)

  7. #4
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    893
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Some have suggested Alan/Iranian units. I'm still trying to figure out if a warrior with R1b wearing a dress & playing the bagpipes, in the mountains and plateau's can be related to ancient Vlachs/ Armenians/Anatolians.
    I have linked to bagpipes before. See the Lounge #14.

    I think the Alans and others may have been to Britain with the Romans. Can we prove it with y-dna?

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

     Silesian (10-25-2013)

  9. #5
    Administrator
    Posts
    2,230
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    I have linked to bagpipes before. See the Lounge #14.

    I think the Alans and others may have been to Britain with the Romans. Can we prove it with y-dna?
    There is a possible link within R1a, specifically the rare R1a-Z93* and R1a-Z94* paragroups, and there may be a trace of Dacians in the E-V13 along the Borders/Cumbria.
    Last edited by AJL; 10-24-2013 at 08:29 PM. Reason: edited for clarity
     

    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (10-24-2013),  Silesian (10-25-2013)

  11. #6
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    893
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    If Z2103 is as rare in Britain as it seems to be, it may not have been a part of a major migration. Instead, it may be the result of unrelated Z2103 men migrating into Britain over a long period of time, perhaps thousands of years. Is there anything in their STR that makes them different than continental Z2103?
    That's a big "if" regarding how rare is Z2103 in Britain. It is rare yet we have hundreds of kits that meet the ht35 criteria that are not snp tested. In the Isles for DYS393=12 it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21. One of my goals with this thread is to raise the noise level of some surname projects to shame them to snp test for Z2103 along with L277 and L584.

    It really does look like many different migrations to the isles. Likely it started with the Romans if those lines survived. The Normans seem like very good candidates too. One group that has not been looked at enough are the Poles. We have immigration to Britain from Poland starting with Canute the Great in 1015 and Polish Merchant travelers in the 16th century that may explain some colonial Z2103.

    To my rookie eye, a few str groups show up. The one that jumped out at me (because I have it) is the DYS460=10, YCAll=18 and DYS640=12 complex.
    Sorting by the 10 str loci that *Grugni et al. used in their Iranian Y-DNA study.
    DYS19>DYS388>DYS389I/II>DYS390>DYS391>DYS392>DYS393>DYS439>DYS460>YCAII b/YCAIIa
    Doing so the DYS640=12 value really sticks out. Surnames include Robins, Grant, Smith, Carter and Llewellyn. Mike's work with the R1b Early Subclades spreadsheet and Speculative Varieties should help us tease out those strs.

    SNP wise we need testing. Of note are O'Donnell (282121) or Ireland and White (N57861) of unknown that are L150.? PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563+. Another one worth watching is L23+, L150- or L150.2 that includes Seymour (108347) of Sawbridgeworth. He does test L23+, L150- and Z2103+, Z2105+, L277- and L584-.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-25-2013 at 12:06 AM.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Joe B For This Useful Post:

     Silesian (10-25-2013)

  13. #7
    Administrator
    Posts
    2,230
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Ethnicity
    Mixed Euro/Near East
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP4516/YP4807*
    mtDNA
    H11a2a3

    Canada Franco-Manitoban European Union Ottoman Empire Russia Imperial United States Grand Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    One group that has not been looked at enough are the Poles. We have immigration to Britain from Poland starting with Canute the Great in 1015 and Polish Merchant travelers in the 16th century that may explain some colonial Z2103.
    That is possible and I would add that it is also useful to consider that some areas where Saxons, Jutes, Angles were from are not at all distant to Poland.
     

    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to AJL For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (10-24-2013)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,209
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+ L2+
    mtDNA
    H4a1

    United States of America Italy Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    That's a big "if" regarding how rare is Z2103 in Britain. It is rare yet we have hundreds of kits that would meet the ht35 criteria yet are not snp tested. In the Isles it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21. One of my goals with this thread is to raise the noise level of some surname projects to shame them to snp test for Z2103 along with L277 and L584.
    It really does look like many different migrations to the isles, likely starting with the Romans, if those lines survived. The Normans seem like very good canidates too. One group that has not been looked at enough are the Poles. We have immigration to Britain from Poland starting with Canute the Great in 1015 and Polish Merchant travelers in the 16th century that may explain some colonial Z2103.
    To my rookie eye, a few str groups show up. The one that jumped out at me (because I have it) is the YCAll=18, DYS460=10 and DYS640=12 complex.
    I like to sort using the 10 str loci that *Grugni et al. used in their Iranian Y-DNA study.
    DYS19>DYS388>DYS389I/II>DYS390>DYS391>DYS392>DYS393>DYS439>DYS460>YCAII b/YCAIIa
    Doing so the DYS640=12 value really sticks out. Surnames include Robins, Grant, Smith, Carter and Llewellyn.
    Can I ask how many confirmed Z2103+ or L23(xL51) kit there are?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,712
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    That's a big "if" regarding how rare is Z2103 in Britain. It is rare yet we have hundreds of kits that would meet the ht35 criteria yet are not snp tested. In the Isles it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21. One of my goals with this thread is to raise the noise level of some surname projects to shame them to snp test for Z2103 along with L277 and L584.
    ...
    Are you saying its 50/50 that the people who have the ht35 STR pattern are Z2103 vs L21?

    One of the reasons my general recommendation in the R1b project is to get Geno 2 is that it is the safe way to get at least close to your public terminal SNP.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Mikewww For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (10-24-2013)

  18. #10
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    893
    Sex
    Location
    California
    Y-DNA
    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Are you saying its 50/50 that the people who have the ht35 STR pattern are Z2103 vs L21?
    One of the reasons my general recommendation in the R1b project is to get Geno 2 is that it is the safe way to get at least close to your public terminal SNP.
    That was sloppy writing and I have changed it.
    we have hundreds of kits that meet the ht35 criteria that are not snp tested. In the Isles for DYS393=12 it's probably 50/50 Z2103 vs. L21.
    The 50/50 is based on my own experience. It could be 70/30 in favor of L21 by the time you get to Ireland. I don't really know. Until the deep clade was done, it was just as likely L21+ would have been my result instead of L150+. I agree that Geno2.0 is the best choice when no snp testing has been done. I want to tow the line and follow your recommendations regarding snp and str testing. They make sense.
    We do need to move people to test for Z2103 too. I would suggest that in some of these surname projects that starting out with Z2103 might be appropriate. Again, I'm a rookie and just want to help with guidance.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-25-2013 at 12:08 AM.

Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Z2103 (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103) & Z2105
    By Mikewww in forum R1b-Z2103/Z2105
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-25-2015, 04:13 AM
  2. Replies: 47
    Last Post: 09-28-2013, 05:35 PM
  3. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-08-2013, 03:34 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-18-2013, 08:52 PM
  5. Divorce rates in the Western hemisphere
    By DMXX in forum General Sociology/Ethnology
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-15-2013, 11:45 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •