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Thread: R-Z2103 & Early R1b, an Enigma of Western Europe

  1. #61
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    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Welcome to the forum. Can't add much to eastara's analysis. Please join the R1b Basal Subclades Haplogroup Project. We cover the R1b-M343 (xP312 xU106) part of the tree. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ubclades/about
    You'll also want to get a professional analysis at YFull and placement on there haplotree once your Big Y results are complete. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y13369/
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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     dosas (01-10-2019)

  3. #62
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    Ivaylovgrad(Ortakkoy) until 1913 seemed to predominantly Greek town, but the villages around were Turkish and Bulgarian. This is typical, Greeks in Thrace lived mainly in the cities and smaller towns, but the rural area around was Turkish and Bulgarian. Greeks moved where there was more business and did not involve much in farm work (with exception of wine growing). So your paternal grandparent could have come from elsewhere, including Anatolia. Probably you should order Big Y to see which exactly is your branch, predictors are not 100% reliable. You have rather big Middle East/ West Asian, but it could have come from your mother, Pontic Greeks from Trabzon show up to 90% and more Anatolian.

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  5. #63
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    R1b-Z2103>Y14416

    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Hello everyone, I've recently done a Y-111 test with ftdna and fed the results into nevgen. It gave me R1b Z2103>L584> PF7580 as a result at 90.3% probability. I am still waiting for my Big-Y, but I am baffled with my result and try to find more information about it (I've joined the R1b project in ftdna but their main page seems to be offline).

    I am Northern Greek, by the way, with paternal ancestry from Northern Thrace (former Eastern Romelia, now Bulgaria).

    Thanks in advance, for any bone of information or advice you can throw my way!
    Just took a look at your STRs. I have to agree with eastara's assessment of STR haplogroup predictors, they are less than reliable. In your case, with no matches at the 12 STR level, or any level, it's hard to say for sure what the haplogroup is. Suspect it is R1b-Z2103>L584. However, something downstream from Z2106 is a real possibility. There is even an outside chance that you are in a completely different subclade. Stranger things have happened. Glad you got a NGS test so we don't have to guess anymore. Looking forward to your Big Y results.
    Last edited by Joe B; 01-11-2019 at 10:12 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  7. #64
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    Just an update, I've ran the numbers again with nevgen and I got 70.2% probability of unsupported sub-clade? How is this possible with Y-111?

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     Joe B (01-13-2019)

  9. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Just an update, I've ran the numbers again with nevgen and I got 70.2% probability of unsupported sub-clade? How is this possible with Y-111?
    STRs and SNPs are coincidental to each other. So going to 111 STRs would only be helpful in predicting a haplogroup if there was a particular STR signature that needed that kind of coverage. In your case, I'm betting that your Y DNA TMRCA is several thousand years ago and represents a new branch. Pretty hard for algorithm to figure out your haplogroup when there is nobody in the database to represent it. Until you.
    Last edited by Joe B; 01-13-2019 at 12:31 AM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  11. #66
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    Hello everyone and sorry if this is not the proper location, however, a close friend of mine (his family) was under R-Z2103. Was this haplogroup brought by the Romans or Persians?

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     aaronbee2010 (02-15-2019)

  13. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Hello everyone and sorry if this is not the proper location, however, a close friend of mine (his family) was under R-Z2103. Was this haplogroup brought by the Romans or Persians?
    Maybe, but also possibly by Hittites, Armenians (30% now), Sea people, Greeks (25% in antiquity, 15 to 25% now according to the region), Assyrian Christians (25% now ) , Alaouites (not known but important)

    Originally before 2200BC, R1b-Z2103 was the main haplogroup in the steppes of South Russia and Ukraine and often considered as the first speakers of the proto Indo-European. Already, they migrated westwards and southwards. But during the 2200BC event ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event ), the steppe was dried and became a desert temporarily. The steppe inhabitants fled into Balkans (Greeks, Phrygians, Thraces, ...) and spred the indo-european language, but also in Middle East thru the Caucasus by the Derbent pass along the West shores of Caspian Sea : notablet frequency in some small people of East Caucasus like Tabarassans ,Lezguins and more southern in Gilakis, Armenians, Tats and Azeris.

    Later when wetter again, the steppe was populated by R1a population coming from the Middle Volga southwards.

    Now R1b is 8% in Liban, mostly R1b-Z2103.
    Last edited by palamede; 02-19-2019 at 10:27 PM.

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  15. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    Originally before 2200BC, R1b-Z2103 was the main haplogroup in the steppes of South Russia and Ukraine and often considered as the first speakers of the proto Indo-European.
    Early PIE is generally regarded to have been spoken in Eneolithic cultures like Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog.

    And R1b-Z2103 wasn't the main haplogroup on the steppe before 2200 BC. There was a wide variety of R1a, R1b, Q and I2 lineages in the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations of the steppe. You should take a closer look at the ancient samples from the steppe.

    Later when wetter again, the steppe was populated by R1a population coming from the Middle Volga southwards.
    The earliest R1a-M417 is from the Eneolithic North Pontic steppe in Ukraine.

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  17. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    Assyrian Christians (25% now )
    Assyrian R1b varies though, in some populations it's 10% and in others it's around 22%

  18. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe12 View Post
    Assyrian R1b varies though, in some populations it's 10% and in others it's around 22%
    Well the Assyrian diaspora in Iran has it about 40%. That's the highest I have seen.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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