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Thread: R-Z2103 & Early R1b, an Enigma of Western Europe

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Can I ask how many confirmed Z2103+ or L23(xL51) kit there are?
    The total number of kits tested Z2103+ is about 25 to 30. Looking at the R1b Early spreadsheet, confirmed L23(xL51) number is around 375. These are very rough numbers. Hopefully somebody has a better handle on this than me.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-24-2013 at 11:54 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    .... I agree that Geno2.0 is the best choice when no snp testing has been done. I want to tow the line and follow your recommendations regarding snp and str testing. They make sense.
    We do need to move people to test for Z2103 too.....
    I don't think there is any particular line to tow. Geno 2 is just the safe way (for FTDNA customers) to be sure to get something out of your testing money. I'm assuming things like Z2103, L584, L277 and Z2115 are in Geno 2. They are, aren't they?

    I would say we shouldn't rely on 393=12 too much in the Isles. There are a lot of L11+ folks of one type or another with 393=12. I just did a count and I can find 226 L21+ with 393=12 and 4 with 393=11.

    We need to do the SNP testing. From your perspective, as long as the Z2103 set is included, Geno 2 is probably what you want to push. By sheer numbers, Irish, Scots and Brits will be looking elsewhere.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I don't think there is any particular line to tow. Geno 2 is just the safe way (for FTDNA customers) to be sure to get something out of your testing money. I'm assuming things like Z2103, L584, L277 and Z2115 are in Geno 2. They are, aren't they?

    I would say we shouldn't rely on 393=12 too much in the Isles. There are a lot of L11+ folks of one type or another with 393=12. I just did a count and I can find 226 L21+ with 393=12 and 4 with 393=11.

    We need to do the SNP testing. From your perspective, as long as the Z2103 set is included, Geno 2 is probably what you want to push. By sheer numbers, Irish, Scots and Brits will be looking elsewhere.
    Z2103, Z2105, L277, L584 and L943 are not on the Geno2.0 chip. I don't know about Z2115. Geno2.0 does test for Z2110 CTS7822. So far those individuals that are CTS7822+ and tested for Z2103 or Z2105 have had positive results for Z2103 or Z2105. For kits that tested CTS7822+, Geno2.0 labels them CTS7822. When the data is transferred to FTDNA, they are relabeled L150.

    What about asking all Geno2.0 L150 or CTS7822 haplotypes to test for Z2103 and advance them towards a terminal snp? The same should be asked for everybody tested to R1b1a2a/L23 or R1b1a2a1/L150, test for Z2103 and beyond.

    I'm hoping we can leverage the huge sampling of Irish, Scots and Brits to our advantage. We have a few surname projects to work with. They just need better snp testing to comfirm their haplotype. Can something be done with str variance within a surname project?

    Tow the line did sound a little political. How about a short leash for myself?
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-25-2013 at 03:32 PM.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    I have linked to bagpipes before. See the Lounge #14.

    I think the Alans and others may have been to Britain with the Romans. Can we prove it with y-dna?
    Richard is right, we really can't tell with 100% certainty. We don't even have a complete breakdown of Kromsdorf R1B and King Tuts results are under lock and key, having never been made officially public. It is pretty safe to say that in our region Germany/Poland the oldest would be the Pardubice U98vt [1180 ce Czech ] which is not far from my paternal family is from Gliwice/Gleiwitz- Silesia. We don't have any ancient samples from Britain. However, we do have evidence Z2103/is found among the Ossets and it could be related to some of the Jasz people.
    The Jasz people were a nomadic Sarmatian tribe which settled in the medieval Kingdom of Hungary during the 13th century.[1] Their name is almost certainly related to that of the Iazyges, one of the Sarmatian Alanic tribes which, along with the Roxolani, reached the borders of Dacia during the late 1st century BC (the city of Iași is named for them). Residual elements of these tribes, ancestors of the Jasz people, remained behind in the central North Caucasus, mingling with Caucasian peoples to form the present-day Ossetes.

    However we cannot say with any certainty if there is a connection with Alans being in the Roman army, stationed in Britain.


    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    Ossetians IE (Iranian, NE) 47N 42.6%[25] Rosser et al. (2000
    Last edited by Silesian; 10-25-2013 at 03:36 PM.
    R1b-Z2109 [SVP58/I0444]Kutuluk kurgan avatar, blunt mace 48 cm long, 767 g cast/annealed copper-3335-2881 calBCE

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  7. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Geno2.0 does test for Z2110 CTS7822 and so far those individuals that have tested for Z2103 or Z2105 are positive.
    It isn't true that all the R-Z2103/Z2105+ tested for Geno 2.0 are also CTS7822/Z2110+. The Morley's tree shows which are positive and which not.

    !!!!1R1b1a2a2 Z2103/CTS1078 [19/19], Z2105 [28/28]
    1901
    !!!!!!!!
    !127630
    ?, 134236
    ?, 140135
    ?, 14386
    ?, 145692
    ?, 159888
    ?, 164229
    ?, 16910
    ?, 185782
    ?, 257842
    ?, 47778
    ?, 64409
    ?, 82745
    ?, 84950
    ?, 99230
    ?, E12439
    ?, N23635
    ?,
    N66406
    ?
    1902 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2a CTS1848 [1/3], L584 [9/9], PF3449 [1/3], PF7580 [3/3]
    1903 !!!!!!!!!152974, 166322, 166323, 182984, 235098, 45475, 87265, 92187, N10795, N113044, N93831
    1904 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2b L277 [6/6], L479 [1/1] (no nearby negative results)
    1905 !!!!!!!!!159189, 177152, 195191, 234905, 95875, N97723
    1906
    !!!!!!!!
    ?!1R1b1a2a2c L150/PF6274
    bR
    1907 !!!!!!!!!108347, N37658
    1908 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2–14 CTS7763 [1/1], CTS8966 [1/1]
    1909 !!!!!!!!!164226

    Only these samples are positive:
    1910 !!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–14 CTS7822 [7/7]
    1911 !!!!!!!!247019, N115176, N29277
    1912 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–1–1 CTS9219 [4/4]
    1913 !!!!!!!!!257843, N112689, N114393, N115142
    Last edited by Rathna; 10-25-2013 at 07:24 AM.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    It isn't true that all the R-Z2103/Z2105+ tested for Geno 2.0 are also CTS7822/Z2110+.
    You are right. Let me clarify with better wording. Had I been your student, my writing would be better.
    Geno2.0 does test for Z2110 CTS7822. So far those individuals that are CTS7822+ and tested for Z2103 or Z2105 have had positive results for Z2103 or Z2105
    Regardless, getting individuals that are Geno2.0 L150 or CTS7822 to test for Z2103 and hopefully L277 and L584 should be a goal. I would not be surprised if in the future this changes for CTS7822+ haplotypes.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-25-2013 at 03:40 PM.

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  11. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    You are right. Let me clarify with better wording.

    Regardless, getting individuals that are Geno2.0 L150 or CTS7822 to test for Z2103 and hopefully L277 and L584 should be a goal. I would not be surprised if in the future this changes for CTS7822+ haplotypes.
    I apologize for my scarcity in English but I didn't understand your statement. Richard Rocca has the proofs that there are some SNPs between R-Z2103/Z2105+ and CTS7822/Z2110, then all these are subclades of R-Z2103/Z2105+.

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  13. #18
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    Originally Posted by AJL on the Norman thread
    It would be good to get as precise a map as possible of the Z2103 in Britain. It might correspond to areas with Roman soldiers, say.
    Last March I got my snp results confirming Z2103+ and my frist thought was The Romans. It actually sent a bit of a chill through me. My dad took me to see a Roman quarry near his hometown. It's called Felsenmeer Lautertal Odenwald, or to a 13 year kid four plus decades ago, a big field of rocks. Use google translate this page.

    The Romans had a very strong presence this area due to the Limes Germanicus. This crude map was made last March overlaying kits that are L584+, L277+ or Z2105+/L277-L584- over a US Military map of Roman defenses. Quickly came to the conclusion that the story of Z2103+ in Western Europe is a lot more complicated than the Romans.
    L23+roman_empire_117_ad-USM.jpglimes_germany-USMA-resized.jpg

    The Romans are a great place to start. They must of had something to do with some of the spread of Z2103 and other early R1b subcades to the west. How much and from where? Hopefully I can get a map put together for Britain with some data points and Roman fortifications.

    I can not imagine how hard the work must have been at a Roman quarry.
    1964 soldiers "try" to lift the giant pillar.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-25-2013 at 05:45 PM.

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  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    It isn't true that all the R-Z2103/Z2105+ tested for Geno 2.0 are also CTS7822/Z2110+. The Morley's tree shows which are positive and which not.

    !!!!1R1b1a2a2 Z2103/CTS1078 [19/19], Z2105 [28/28]
    1901
    !!!!!!!!
    !127630
    ?, 134236
    ?, 140135
    ?, 14386
    ?, 145692
    ?, 159888
    ?, 164229
    ?, 16910
    ?, 185782
    ?, 257842
    ?, 47778
    ?, 64409
    ?, 82745
    ?, 84950
    ?, 99230
    ?, E12439
    ?, N23635
    ?,
    N66406

    ?
    1902 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2a CTS1848 [1/3], L584 [9/9], PF3449 [1/3], PF7580 [3/3]
    1903 !!!!!!!!!152974, 166322, 166323, 182984, 235098, 45475, 87265, 92187, N10795, N113044, N93831
    1904 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2b L277 [6/6], L479 [1/1] (no nearby negative results)
    1905 !!!!!!!!!159189, 177152, 195191, 234905, 95875, N97723
    1906
    !!!!!!!!
    ?!1R1b1a2a2c L150/PF6274
    bR
    1907 !!!!!!!!!108347, N37658
    1908 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a2–14 CTS7763 [1/1], CTS8966 [1/1]
    1909 !!!!!!!!!164226

    Only these samples are positive:
    1910 !!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–14 CTS7822 [7/7]
    1911 !!!!!!!!247019, N115176, N29277
    1912 !!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1–1–1 CTS9219 [4/4]
    1913 !!!!!!!!!257843, N112689, N114393, N115142
    The red kits are NOT tested for Geno 2.0. Only 5 samples are the CTS7822 negative.

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  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    Rough contrast using members listing country of origin such as U.K. 10+/-. part of Ht-35 project. Fertile Crescent -Anatolian-Armenian-Iranian plateau and Roman soldiers garrisons.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ection=results

    Screenshot (2).jpg
    Last edited by Silesian; 10-27-2013 at 01:20 PM.
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