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Thread: J* Socotra origination

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    J* Socotra origination

    https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/1...m-soqotra.html
    So this study was done in Socotra and out of 64 samples 71.4% of the Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroup J*(xJ1, J2) which is found at trace frequencies elsewhere. Interestingly, haplogroup J2 is not found in this isolated region, while haplogroup J1 is found at a frequency of 14.3%.
    This gives us a glimpse that J* haplogroup may have originated from the south
    whats your thoughts?

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    Interesting topic and question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman92 View Post
    https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/1...m-soqotra.html
    So this study was done in Socotra and out of 64 samples 71.4% of the Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroup J*(xJ1, J2) which is found at trace frequencies elsewhere. Interestingly, haplogroup J2 is not found in this isolated region, while haplogroup J1 is found at a frequency of 14.3%.
    This gives us a glimpse that J* haplogroup may have originated from the south
    whats your thoughts?
    Unlikely. Also at that time of Dinekes' post circa 2008 the phylogeny of J was not developed.
    IMO, J and I's origin are to be looked at together which takes us to about the LGM. So we should look at where humans were present in the LGM.
    Socotra - doubtful, as the Holocene settlement of the island is approximately 6000 years old, much after the LGM. With the water trapped in the LGM, human settlements had to be somewhere near lakes such as the Black Sea (then a lake).

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Unlikely. Also at that time of Dinekes' post circa 2008 the phylogeny of J was not developed.
    IMO, J and I's origin are to be looked at together which takes us to about the LGM. So we should look at where humans were present in the LGM.
    Socotra - doubtful, as the Holocene settlement of the island is approximately 6000 years old, much after the LGM. With the water trapped in the LGM, human settlements had to be somewhere near lakes such as the Black Sea (then a lake).
    Well during the time the oldest phylogeny of J was found in Socotra, but they lacked sub-clades; so J* dominates Socotra, J1 dominates southern Arabian peninsula, and J2 peaks in the north. Which seems more plausible and ordered.

    Any Caucasoid components Arabian peninsulars would have today, would be from the Abrahamic/semite J haplogroups that arose in Iraq/Syria 5,000 years ago; but prior to that Caucasoid components would have been much lower in Arabian Peninsula; because to this day in Southern Arabia we would have J haplogroups that are much older than that of the Abrahamic/Semite J haplogroups.
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 08-13-2018 at 03:04 AM.

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    I believe that J* carriers have a long history in southern Arabia.

    The J* the Mahra of Socotra and in Mahra and Dhofar is likely connected to the basal unidentified J* cases in the Omotic peoples like the Keefa, Maale, Yam, and the Schekecho (who are 56% J).

    Omotics also have J2 in addition to J1, and also J*.

    There was possibly some pre-Cushitic migration land-hopping between southern Arabians and early or -pre-Omotic migration peoples of the Horn. There is also the Cushitic substral influence in MSA and/or OSA which is likley very real.

    As such there was already history (which stretches back well into pre-history) of migration into the Horn from Arabia pre-Cushitic migration period - as J* represents. Then a backwards reverse migration after the Cushitic migration and settlement of the Horn, in which Cushitic groups somehow manage (seaborne or island-hopping) to colonize parts of Arabia until early West Semitic groups made their prescence there - perhaos beginning with the ancestral Ethiosemites - who may have picked up some Cushitic influences in Arabia before the main Agew and later Sidamic and Beja interactions.

    We already see plenty evidence later on of population migrations from the Horn into Arabia and vis versa - such as the Abyssinian/Aksumite settlement of the Red Sea lowlands of the Tihamah and Al-Hudaydah and earlier colonia in Najran, and the extensive Somali settlement in Mukalla and Aden and the Somali founded Arabian clans like the Daroodi (Darod Somali) of Dhofar and the inland Jebel in Oman and the founder of the Al-Jabarti clan of Zabid, and the south Arabia to Horn migrations such as the ancestral Ethiosemites, the migration of the Ashraf families into the Benadir and Tigryinya Highlands, the Al-Anizzah and Banu Judham and Ba Alawi migration into the Benadir from the 900's to the 1800's, and the founders of the Somali Arab Salah and "Bakri" (descneded from Abu Bakr) Sheikhaale clans and the migration of Meccan Qurayshi Makhzoumites into Shewa. And the later Sharif ancestors of certian Jeberti Tigryinya families. Not to mention the later migrations like the currently 1,000,000+ Somalis in Yemen post-civil war, and the Yemenite Jewish settlement of Somali cities in the entire breadth and length of the Somali Red Sea and Indian Ocean seaboard - from Djibouti to Mogadishu.

    As such - this two-way migration between southern Arabia and the Horn of Africa is clearly not a unique new phenomena, and was on-going likely even before the first nomadic Cushitic kin-groups expanded into the Horn - as suggested by the J* in the Omotic groups. What bearing this has on Omotic auDNA and the fact that Omotic West Eurasian ancestry is very basal-looking unlike the more Anatolian-like West Eurasian ancestry of Cushitic groups like Luxmanda and Somalis.

    An analysis comparing the Ibermaursi and Omotic West Eurasian (specifically those of the Ari blacksmith caste) would show us whether the basal-ness of Omotic West Eurasian ancestry in regards to Somalis is simply because of Omotics having preserved an early wave (likely 1st wave) of West Eurasian paloelithic North African ancestry like that of the Ibermausi, whilst the Cushitic groups have later Levant or Anatolian neolithic input - the ones who could have been repsonsible for bringing T1a-L208 in the proto-Cushitic and the R1b-V88 in Chadics, although they were most likely 2 different migration waves with an earlier T1a-L208 migration and later R1b-V88 one, who may have also had different autosomal signatures knowing that R1b-V88 was sourced in the Dnieper-Bug region in a likely WHG-rich group with European lactase mutations presently carried by Chadic folks.
    Last edited by Asrafael.; 08-13-2018 at 03:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrafael. View Post
    I believe that J* carriers have a long history in southern Arabia.

    The J* the Mahra of Socotra and in Mahra and Dhofar is likely connected to the basal unidentified J* cases in the Omotic peoples like the Keefa, Maale, Yam, and the Schekecho (who are 56% J).

    Omotics also have J2 in addition to J1, and also J*.

    There was possibly some pre-Cushitic migration land-hopping between southern Arabians and early or -pre-Omotic migration peoples of the Horn. There is also the Cushitic substral influence in MSA and/or OSA which is likley very real.

    As such there was already history (which stretches back well into pre-history) of migration into the Horn from Arabia pre-Cushitic migration period - as J* represents. Then a backwards reverse migration after the Cushitic migration and settlement of the Horn, in which Cushitic groups somehow manage (seaborne or island-hopping) to colonize parts of Arabia until early West Semitic groups made their prescence there - perhaos beginning with the ancestral Ethiosemites - who may have picked up some Cushitic influences in Arabia before the main Agew and later Sidamic and Beja interactions.

    We already see plenty evidence later on of mutual population migrations from the Horn into Arabia - such as the Abyssinian/Aksumite settlement of the Red Sea lowlands of the Tihamah and Al-Hudaydah and earlier colonia in Najran, and the extensive Somali settlement in Mukalla and Aden and the Somali founded Arabian clans like the Daroodi (Darod Somali) of Dhofar and the inland Jebel in Oman the founder of the Al-Jabarti clan of Zabid, and the south Arabia to Horn migrations such as the ancestral Ethiosemites, the migration of the Ashraf families, the Al-Anizzah and Banu Judham and Ba Alawi migration into the Benadri (particularly Brava), and the founders of the Somali Arab Salah and "Bakri" (descneded from Abu Bakr) Sheikhaale clans and the Qurayshi Makhzoumites into Shewa. And the Sharif ancestors of certian Jeberti Tigryinya families.

    This two-way migration between southern Arabia and the Horn of Africa is clearly not a new phenomena, and was on-going likely even before the first nomadic Cushitic kin-groups expanded into the Horn - as suggested by the J* in the Omotic groups. What bearing this has on Omotic auDNA and the fact that Omotic West Eurasian ancestry is very basal-looking unlike the more Anatolian-like West Eurasian ancestry of Cushitic groups like Luxmanda and Somalis. Although an analysis comparing the Ibermaursi and Omotic West Eurasian (specifically the Ari blacksmith caste) would show us whether the basal-ness of Omotic West Eurasian ancestry in regards to Somalis will help show whether this is simply because of Omotics having preserved an early wave (likely 1st wave) of West Eurasian paloelithic North African ancestry that the Ibermausi have - whilst the Cushitic groups have later Levant or Anatolian neolithic input - the ones who could have been repsonsible for bringing T1a-L208 in the proto-Cushitic and the R1b-V88 in Chadics, although they were most likely 2 different migration waves with an earlier T1a-L208 migration and later R1b-V88 one - and may have had different autosomal signatures knowing that R1b-V88 was sourced in the Dnieper-Bug region in a likely WHG-rich group with European lactase mutations present in Chadics.
    Even Sudan has an ancient J component which seems more plausible Socotra is where it all started because Socotra's location seems more plausible that it gave both the Arabia and the Horn a kickstart for their J haplogroup journey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asrafael. View Post
    I believe that J* carriers have a long history in southern Arabia.

    The J* the Mahra of Socotra and in Mahra and Dhofar is likely connected to the basal unidentified J* cases in the Omotic peoples like the Keefa, Maale, Yam, and the Schekecho (who are 56% J).

    Omotics also have J2 in addition to J1, and also J*.

    There was possibly some pre-Cushitic migration land-hopping between southern Arabians and early or -pre-Omotic migration peoples of the Horn. There is also the Cushitic substral influence in MSA and/or OSA which is likley very real.

    As such there was already history (which stretches back well into pre-history) of migration into the Horn from Arabia pre-Cushitic migration period - as J* represents. Then a backwards reverse migration after the Cushitic migration and settlement of the Horn, in which Cushitic groups somehow manage (seaborne or island-hopping) to colonize parts of Arabia until early West Semitic groups made their prescence there - perhaos beginning with the ancestral Ethiosemites - who may have picked up some Cushitic influences in Arabia before the main Agew and later Sidamic and Beja interactions.

    We already see plenty evidence later on of population migrations from the Horn into Arabia and vis versa - such as the Abyssinian/Aksumite settlement of the Red Sea lowlands of the Tihamah and Al-Hudaydah and earlier colonia in Najran, and the extensive Somali settlement in Mukalla and Aden and the Somali founded Arabian clans like the Daroodi (Darod Somali) of Dhofar and the inland Jebel in Oman and the founder of the Al-Jabarti clan of Zabid, and the south Arabia to Horn migrations such as the ancestral Ethiosemites, the migration of the Ashraf families into the Benadir and Tigryinya Highlands, the Al-Anizzah and Banu Judham and Ba Alawi migration into the Benadir from the 900's to the 1800's, and the founders of the Somali Arab Salah and "Bakri" (descneded from Abu Bakr) Sheikhaale clans and the migration of Meccan Qurayshi Makhzoumites into Shewa. And the later Sharif ancestors of certian Jeberti Tigryinya families. Not to mention the later migrations like the currently 1,000,000+ Somalis in Yemen post-civil war, and the Yemenite Jewish settlement of Somali cities in the entire breadth and length of the Somali Red Sea and Indian Ocean seaboard - from Djibouti to Mogadishu.

    As such - this two-way migration between southern Arabia and the Horn of Africa is clearly not a unique new phenomena, and was on-going likely even before the first nomadic Cushitic kin-groups expanded into the Horn - as suggested by the J* in the Omotic groups. What bearing this has on Omotic auDNA and the fact that Omotic West Eurasian ancestry is very basal-looking unlike the more Anatolian-like West Eurasian ancestry of Cushitic groups like Luxmanda and Somalis.

    An analysis comparing the Ibermaursi and Omotic West Eurasian (specifically those of the Ari blacksmith caste) would show us whether the basal-ness of Omotic West Eurasian ancestry in regards to Somalis is simply because of Omotics having preserved an early wave (likely 1st wave) of West Eurasian paloelithic North African ancestry like that of the Ibermausi, whilst the Cushitic groups have later Levant or Anatolian neolithic input - the ones who could have been repsonsible for bringing T1a-L208 in the proto-Cushitic and the R1b-V88 in Chadics, although they were most likely 2 different migration waves with an earlier T1a-L208 migration and later R1b-V88 one, who may have also had different autosomal signatures knowing that R1b-V88 was sourced in the Dnieper-Bug region in a likely WHG-rich group with European lactase mutations presently carried by Chadic folks.
    Interesting...I did not know that basal J* types and J2 are found among Omotic peoples...I thought that the J among Omotics was all J1...Do you know how much J2 is found among Omotic groups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hman92 View Post
    Even Sudan has an ancient J component which seems more plausible Socotra is where it all started because Socotra's location seems more plausible that it gave both the Arabia and the Horn a kickstart for their J haplogroup journey.
    Do you have a source for the J* in Sudan?

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