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Thread: On the Britons and Anglo-Saxons

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    . . . not to mention the possibility of some U106 being present in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons . . .
    This is a topic guaranteed to make me unpopular, as it has done in the past.

    Obviously some U106 was brought to Britain prior to the advent of the Anglo-Saxons by the Romans (gladiators, foederati, etc.), but you seem to be implying something more than that.

    So, what makes you think there was any U106 among the Celtic Britons?
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This is a topic guaranteed to make me unpopular, as it has done in the past.

    Obviously some U106 was brought to Britain prior to the advent of the Anglo-Saxons by the Romans (gladiators, foederati, etc.), but you seem to be implying something more than that.

    So, what makes you think there was any U106 among the Celtic Britons?
    I am not advocating for a large amount of U106, I do believe most of it is attributable to Anglo-Saxons, but also Danes/Norse, possibly smaller amounts from the Normans, later immigration, etc.

    As there was a Germanic presence in Britain since the Romans at least it seems possible that some of these early Germanics may have left U106 descendants who subsequently became part of the Celtic British population prior to the shift brought about by the Anglo-Saxons.

    I suppose my point is less that there was U106 in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons so much as it not all need be attributed to the Anglo-Saxons. Perhaps pre-Danelaw and other later migrations there may have been less U106 than today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I am not advocating for a large amount of U106, I do believe most of it is attributable to Anglo-Saxons, but also Danes/Norse, possibly smaller amounts from the Normans, later immigration, etc.

    As there was a Germanic presence in Britain since the Romans at least it seems possible that some of these early Germanics may have left U106 descendants who subsequently became part of the Celtic British population prior to the shift brought about by the Anglo-Saxons.

    I suppose my point is less that there was U106 in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons so much as it not all need be attributed to the Anglo-Saxons. Perhaps pre-Danelaw and other later migrations there may have been less U106 than today?
    Okay. I really don't give a rat's arse, especially given all the grief I have caught over the years arguing that I don't think there was much if any U106 in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons.

    Just thought I would ask, since I don't see any evidence of much of a U106 presence in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons.

    But anything is possible, I guess.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Intersting topic. In general sense I guess that apartheid is a wrong word that suggest a kind of racialism that at that time simply didn't exist. What did exist among the germanic people was a strict kind of class distinction the jarls (elite/nobiles), the karl (middle class, free farmers) and the thralls (slaves unfree). Marriages were arranged to keep up the status of the 'own class'. I guess this must have prevented the intermingle with the Celts in the early years. And especially the elite must have been interconnected across the North Sea. Through the ages this watered....

    Besides that there is another intriguing think because there was also a diversity of Germanic tribes....The initial Saxons (mid fifth century) originated in NW Germany (Lower Saxony) that settled in the diverse regions of England and the Netherlands were followed by some elite migration from Southern Scandinavia ('Jutes') in the sixth century to Friesland (central place Wijnaldum) also to the mound of the Weser (central place Sievern) and to Kent. They had a distinctive style and had a tremendous influence on the other Germanic tribes as well (Salin Style II). They spread also a new Odin religion.

    Still puzzling about their genetic effect. I suppose my father's K36 report of Lukasz gives a indication of this Saxon/Southern Scandinavian admixture......



    But may be too far fetched....
    I used "apartheid" mainly because that's a popular term I've head thrown around when talking about the idea that the Anglo-Saxons simply outbred the Britons via a system that kept the latter as an underclass. What has been used as evidence for this before are certain laws regarding the Britons, giving them a lower wergeld than a Saxon, etc.

    That said I imagine it may have been the highest elite or royal lines of Anglo-Saxons which would have had great British admixture since they often were intermarrying with British princes for political purposes, such as Oswiu of Northumbria's marriage to Riemmelth of Rheged, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    So what is the latest, using genetic data and other disciplines, on the Anglicization of England and the Celtic Britons? It seems obvious based on various P312 subclades, not to mention the possibility of some U106 being present in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons, that the Celtic Britons didn't come to an abrupt end. What though was the process by which Anglicization happened so rapidly and left so few Celtic loanwords, place names, material culture, etc. in England?
    While the question may eventually be at least partly solved by genetics, I have no doubt the answer won't be found by simply counting the amount of P312 in Britain. There are three P312 subclades that at the very least are predominantly Germanic. While when and how this occurred may be an open question, it appears to have been the case at least by the time of the Migration Age. Even those P312 subclades which appear to have been primarily Celtic also have a substantial presence in Germanic areas, including the traditional homelands of the Anglo-Saxons.

    Noted historian of the Anglo-Saxons James Campbell has written, that Bede notwithstanding, "It is certain that men came to Britain from many parts of the Germanic world, from Norway to south Germany." This opinion appears to be based largely on archaeological evidence.

    I think it is also clear that the "Anglo-Saxons" predominantly settled in the eastern parts of England, and that they were fewer in number in the west, where in in at least some areas the Britons may have remained predominant. Campbell notes the area between the upper Thames and the Wash was thickly settled with Anglo-Saxons by the 6th century, and that Britons may not have survived there in any significant numbers. He also says the kingdom of Bernicia probably remained largely British.

    A study of the origin of place names divided England into four zones. In two of these, river names of Celtic origin are rare, and even the names of streams are exclusively of Germanic origin, while in the third zone Celtic names are common. In the fourth zone, consisting of Wales, Cornwall the southwest corner of Herefordshire, British names predominate and show little sign of English influence.

    EDIT: I corrected my rather hurriedly done original post.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 08-13-2018 at 11:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    So what is the latest, using genetic data and other disciplines, on the Anglicization of England and the Celtic Britons? It seems obvious based on various P312 subclades, not to mention the possibility of some U106 being present in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons, that the Celtic Britons didn't come to an abrupt end. What though was the process by which Anglicization happened so rapidly and left so few Celtic loanwords, place names, material culture, etc. in England?

    Some specific questions I have perhaps some might be able to assist with:

    1. Is it really the case that there was some strict apartheid and that the Celtic Britons were regulated to an underclass, or were those who were assimilated to be founder in the higher ranks? It seems possible that certain Saxon royal houses, such as that of Wessex, may have actually been Anglicized Celtic Britons:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerdic_of_Wessex#Origins

    So I wonder, is it possible some of the Celtic Britons essentially joined up with the Anglo-Saxons and were thereby in positions of higher rank rather than the assumed stereotype of Celtic peasants? I've heard this theory about Britons willingly joining the Saxons, but it seems odd that one would willingly give up ones language and culture in favor of an invaders.


    2. Was there any difference between Northern England and Southern England in terms of survival of Celtic Britons or the ways in which they were integrated into English society? It seems a common position that Southeast England is the most English-English, whereas perhaps Northumbria may have been more Celtic in nature? I believe I read that Lothian/Bernicia/Northumberland in particular may have been less firmly Anglian?

    In short please share anything on Anglicization, Celtic survivals, the Celtic component of the English, etc.

    I think that in order to deal with the issue of the anglo-saxon invasion of britain we need to remember that

    1) In the last centuries BC britain was occupied ( since when we do not know with certainty) by a group of belgian tribes that define themselves as germans so we have a likely presence in the east of the country of a pretty much sizable germanic speaking population

    2) during roman times we have in britain a large inflow of soldiers and troops of germanic origin ( especially frisians that spoke a language quite close to AS). So during roman occupation the "germanification" of britannia was reinforced.

    When the legions left the country I think many of those "germanic" were left to their own devices and at this point the arrival of more germanic tribes like AS Jutes tilted the balance against the celtic speaking part of the isles. I think back then it was not a matter of "race": germans against celts. It was just a matter of taking the land/defending the land. My personal opinion is that what really gave the AS the hedge was that they embraced the new faith christianity more eagerly and more willingly so they looked more trustworthy at the eyes of the ecclesiastical authority ( correct me if I'm wrong but Bede links the demise of the britons as a punishment by God).

    I think what we had after the conversion is that celtic speaking population switched to germanic and by doing so they created some of the most peculiar features of the english language as the do and ing form which are clearly of celtic origin.

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    Last edited by etrusco; 08-13-2018 at 08:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I think that in order to deal with the issue of the anglo-saxon invasion of britain we need to remember that

    1) In the last centuries BC britain was occupied ( since when we do not know with certainty) by a group of belgian tribes that define themselves as germans so we have a likely presence in the east of the country of a pretty much sizable germanic speaking population
    The Belgae were Celtic, not Germanic. The names of their leaders were Celtic, and the names of the tribes were Celtic.

    The confusion about them stems from Caesar's references to them in his Gallic Wars as having come from east of the Rhine and therefore, in his mind, being of German origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    2) during roman times we have in britain a large inflow of soldiers and troops of germanic origin ( especially frisians that spoke a language quite close to AS). So during roman occupation the "germanification" of britannia was reinforced.

    When the legions left the country I think many of those "germanic" were left to their own devices and at this point the arrival of more germanic tribes like AS Jutes tilted the balance against the celtic speaking part of the isles. I think back then it was not a matter of "race": germans against celts. It was just a matter of taking the land/defending the land. My personal opinion is that what really gave the AS the hedge was that they embraced the new faith christianity more eagerly and more willingly so they looked more trustworthy at the eyes of the ecclesiastical authority ( correct me if I'm wrong but Bede links the demise of the britons as a punishment by God).

    I think what we had after the conversion is that celtic speaking population switched to germanic and by doing so they created some of the most peculiar features of the english language as the do and ing form which are clearly of celtic origin.
    I agree with some that, but it took the Anglo-Saxons awhile to embrace Christianity. They were fiercely pagan at first. That is reflected in the names of the days of the week in English, most of them still derived from old Germanic gods and at least one goddess.

    I don't think there is much about English that reflects any Celtic influence.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-13-2018 at 08:40 PM.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The Belgae were Celtic, not Germanic. The names of their leaders were Celtic, and the names of the tribes were Celtic.

    The confusion about them stems from Caesar's references to them in his Gallic Wars as having come from east of the Rhine and therefore, in his mind, being of German origin.



    I agree with some that, but it took the Anglo-Saxons awhile to embrace Christianity. They were fiercely pagan at first. That is reflected in the names of the days of the week in English, most of them still derived from old Germanic gods and at least one goddess.

    I don't think there is much about English that reflects any Celtic influence.
    The name of the tribes and the kings is not important since the celts had a deep influence on the germanic world...look for example the cimbri and teutoni that came from northern danemark, clearly germanic tribes with names of tribes and leaders of celtic origin.
    I think what is important is this quote from the De Bello gallico:

    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur. Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt.
    ( All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws." )


    Now the romans were well aware of what a celtic language was because they fought and traded with the celtic world since 400 years. we know that the aquitani spoke a basque related language, the celts well they spoke celtic ...which was the third different language family mentioned in the de bello gallico if not germanic?
    Last edited by etrusco; 08-13-2018 at 08:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I think that in order to deal with the issue of the anglo-saxon invasion of britain we need to remember that

    1) In the last centuries BC britain was occupied ( since when we do not know with certainty) by a group of belgian tribes that define themselves as germans so we have a likely presence in the east of the country of a pretty much sizable germanic speaking population

    2) during roman times we have in britain a large inflow of soldiers and troops of germanic origin ( especially frisians that spoke a language quite close to AS). So during roman occupation the "germanification" of britannia was reinforced.

    When the legions left the country I think many of those "germanic" were left to their own devices and at this point the arrival of more germanic tribes like AS Jutes tilted the balance against the celtic speaking part of the isles. I think back then it was not a matter of "race": germans against celts. It was just a matter of taking the land/defending the land. My personal opinion is that what really gave the AS the hedge was that they embraced the new faith christianity more eagerly and more willingly so they looked more trustworthy at the eyes of the ecclesiastical authority ( correct me if I'm wrong but Bede links the demise of the britons as a punishment by God).

    I think what we had after the conversion is that celtic speaking population switched to germanic and by doing so they created some of the most peculiar features of the english language as the do and ing form which are clearly of celtic origin.

    1. The Belgae were not germanic not in Caesarian sense (left of the Rhine is Celtic, right of the Rhine is Germanic) and not in genetic sense.
    2. The Frisii of the (pre) Roman time were not the Frisians of the migration time. The new Frisians were a conglomerate of Saxons and Scandinavians. The Germanization of the Frisians was definitely a product of the migration time not before. Just as in England was the case.

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