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Thread: On the Britons and Anglo-Saxons

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I enjoyed reading it when it first came out, but Oppenheimer's book is so inaccurate, so absolutely wrong and misleading that no, it's not worth reading, not now, except by those who are forewarned and already aware of its erroneous nature and are interested only in a bit of historiography under the rubric of "Goofy Ideas That Were Once Popular".
    I don't agree. From memory, much of it was a solid and mainstream introduction to P and Q Celtic, geography, history and so on. His own unique theories are not the bulk of the work. In any case I enjoy thinking that questions my assumptions (which are obviously never completely accurate at that distance) and provides a spur to make me check those ideas and ponder more deeply. I enjoyed the book and it encouraged me to read again about early Germanic people in what is now England among other things. It's made me think in particular about whether he could possibly be right on the Belgae, for example. I've wondered about similarities between earlier Bronze Age carvings I've seen in Scandinavia and Derbyshire and have looked into it always with doubt in my mind somewhere.That was worth the price of the book alone.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I don't agree . . .
    I definitely part company with you there, that much is true. That book is so chock full of errors that reading it without an awareness of them beforehand would actually be harmful and could set a newbie back years.

    Its chief value now is as a doorstop.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I definitely part company with you there, that much is true. That book is so chock full of errors that reading it without an awareness of them beforehand would actually be harmful and could set a newbie back years.

    Its chief value now is as a doorstop.
    Fair enough. Don't know why I defended him when I felt he was so wrong. Guess it's just because I enjoyed it more than most books and it got me thinking about how long my Y line might have been in Britain.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    South Wales Border-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    Cumbria-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales, 18th century. Mother's Y line (Wales): R-L21 L371

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  6. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Fair enough. Don't know why I defended him when I felt he was so wrong. Guess it's just because I enjoyed it more than most books and it got me thinking about how long my Y line might have been in Britain.
    Well, Oppenheimer is a talented writer. I'll give him that. The book was a good read.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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     JonikW (03-16-2019)

  8. #215
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    Regarding the question between Britons and Anglo-Saxons, I guess they are basically the same, they (or we) are "muted Bell Beakers" (LN-EBA).
    From Bronze Age to nowadays the NW Bell Beakers (Single Grave heirs) blended with the previous populations consisting of HG and Neolithic Farmer.
    From Ireland to Scandinavia people the populations became a higher HG and Neolithic component compared to the Dutch/ British Beakers at a certain expense of the Steppe component.
    The more North the more the WHG gained, more southwest in NW Europe the Neolithic Farmer gained.
    Genetic drift from Iron Age until now made probably the difference between "Celts" and " Germans" but this is not a basic difference!

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  10. #216
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    Would people say this good reason to think that my mother is at least 40% Germanic (Anglo-Saxon + Viking)?

    Using K36 and G25 coordinates.
    Code:
    "fit": 1.0868,
        "English_Cornwall": 34.17,
        "England_IA": 25,
        "Swedish": 24.17,
        "Norwegian": 16.67,
        "closestDistances": [
          "English_Cornwall:HG00255: 1.754547",
          "English_Cornwall:HG00259: 2.289969",
          "English_Cornwall:HG00243: 2.314623",
          "Swedish:Sweden4: 2.435002",
          "English_Cornwall:HG00264: 2.469064",
          "English_Cornwall:HG00160: 2.534547",
          "Swedish:Sweden9: 2.549047",
          "England_IA:I0156: 2.576671",
          "Norwegian:NOR109: 2.580292",
          "Norwegian:NOR108: 2.747145",
          "English_Cornwall:HG00236: 2.783325",
          "Norwegian:NOR106: 2.796216",
          "Swedish:Sweden5: 2.802517",
          "Swedish:Sweden1: 2.829322",
          "Swedish:Sweden10: 2.874294",
          "Swedish:Sweden7: 2.920265",
          "Swedish:Sweden13: 2.926203",
          "England_IA:M1489: 2.975167",
    Code:
        "fit": 2.5846,
        "SW_England": 59.17,
        "SV_Skane": 40.83,
        "closestDistances": [
          "SW_England:average: 2.830272",
          "SV_Skane:average: 3.073091"
    Code:
        "fit": 2.5576,
        "SW_England": 54.17,
        "Denmark": 45.83,
        "closestDistances": [
          "SW_England:average: 2.830272",
          "Denmark:average: 2.927649"
    Code:
    "fit": 2.2963,
        "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern": 53.33,
        "SW_England": 40,
        "NE_England": 6.67,
        "Denmark": 0,
        "closestDistances": [
          "NE_England:average: 2.671000",
          "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern:average: 2.690689",
          "SW_England:average: 2.830272",
          "Denmark:average: 2.927649"
    Code:
    "fit": 2.2759,
        "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern": 43.33,
        "Cumbria": 38.33,
        "SW_England": 18.33,
        "closestDistances": [
          "Cumbria:average: 2.455614",
          "Mecklenburg-Vorpommern:average: 2.690689",
          "SW_England:average: 2.830272"
    Code:
        "fit": 0.9891,
        "HUN_MA_Szolad": 40.83,
        "England_IA": 30.83,
        "England_Roman": 26.67,
        "DEU_MA": 1.67,
        "closestDistances": [
          "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ11: 2.077035",
          "England_Roman:6DT22: 2.254127",
          "England_IA:I0156: 2.576671",
          "England_Roman:6DT18: 2.695315",
          "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ7: 2.720507",
          "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ13: 2.757432",
          "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ42: 2.761494",
          "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ12: 2.854859",
          "HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ22: 2.905681",
          "England_IA:M1489: 2.975167",
    LivingDNA: 97.6% British Isles, 2.4% Scandinavia. 45.1% North Central England related.
    AncestryDNA: 53% England/Wales, 47% Ireland/Scotland

  11. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    I've seen some odd theories out there to explain the dearth of Celtic loanwords, place names, material culture, etc. among the Anglo-Saxons, such as much of England already being Germanic prior to the proper Anglo-Saxon migrations. I don't think this is true, but again it does seem odd to me that many Britons would willingly allow themselves to be absorbed into a foreign culture at the cost of abandoning their own language, traditions, etc.
    I watched a documentary about the Anglo Saxons (the link for it might actually be on one of this thread's posts). One of the things that this documentary featured was a linguistic expect who noted that there is speach paterns among English people along with the grammer structure of the English language, which is unrelated to either Germanic languages nor the French influence on the English language by the Normans.

  12. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Regarding the question between Britons and Anglo-Saxons, I guess they are basically the same, they (or we) are "muted Bell Beakers" (LN-EBA).
    From Bronze Age to nowadays the NW Bell Beakers (Single Grave heirs) blended with the previous populations consisting of HG and Neolithic Farmer.
    From Ireland to Scandinavia people the populations became a higher HG and Neolithic component compared to the Dutch/ British Beakers at a certain expense of the Steppe component.
    The more North the more the WHG gained, more southwest in NW Europe the Neolithic Farmer gained.
    Genetic drift from Iron Age until now made probably the difference between "Celts" and " Germans" but this is not a basic difference!
    I read somewhere that many AS had subclads of the R1b haplogroup as did the Brythonic Celts. This would suggest IMO that they both shared a common ancient ancestral localation.

  13. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I am not advocating for a large amount of U106, I do believe most of it is attributable to Anglo-Saxons, but also Danes/Norse, possibly smaller amounts from the Normans, later immigration, etc.

    As there was a Germanic presence in Britain since the Romans at least it seems possible that some of these early Germanics may have left U106 descendants who subsequently became part of the Celtic British population prior to the shift brought about by the Anglo-Saxons.

    I suppose my point is less that there was U106 in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxons so much as it not all need be attributed to the Anglo-Saxons. Perhaps pre-Danelaw and other later migrations there may have been less U106 than today?
    I often get the impression that historians specializing in the ancient and early Medievil period along with the opinions of some people on this board that they are not happy about the fact that there must have been some form of interation between native Britons and the lands on the other side of the North Sea prior to the Roman invasions.

    IMO it is inconceivable that there was no interations with these lands and their peoples in ancient times. Yes, I believe that these interations would have led to a few people settling down in Britain, as opposed to mass immigrations or invasions.

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  15. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    ( correct me if I'm wrong but Bede links the demise of the britons as a punishment by God).
    Maybe did or didn't, but Gildas a Romano-British deacon and monk did. The Venerable Bede may well have quoted or made reference to Gildas.

    Sometime between the late 5th century and the 6th century, he wrote a book called 'The Ruin of Britain', which describes a time of dramatic change, when the Roman legions had left Britain and the Romano-British population was under attack from invaders.

    You read more about him and his book here:
    https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscr...06/gildas.html

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