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Thread: On the Britons and Anglo-Saxons

  1. #21
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    It's usually the rule that where Germanic replaced Celtic, Continental or Insular, there is little to no direct influence from the former. Total paradigm shift, if you will. However, in Britain's case, the Celtic spoken must be considered in a Continental context due to the extremely direct Roman presence for a few centuries. The situation for Gaelic/Goidelic was and is different. It looks to me like some people might be attempting an assault on Gaeldom using post-Roman England-Wales as a proxy.
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The name of the tribes and the kings is not important since the celts had a deep influence on the germanic world...look for example the cimbri and teutoni that came from northern danemark, clearly germanic tribes with names of tribes and leaders of celtic origin.
    I think what is important is this quote from the De Bello gallico:

    Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur. Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt.
    ( All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in ours Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws." )


    Now the romans were well aware of what a celtic language was because they fought and traded with the celtic world since 400 years. we know that the aquitani spoke a basque related language, the celts well they spoke celtic ...which was the third different language family mentioned in the de bello gallico if not germanic?
    You make Caesar more of a linguist than he was. The tribal leaders of the Belgae had Celtic names, and the names of the tribes were Celtic, yet you seem to think they spoke some form of Germanic. Yeah, that makes sense.

    It's pretty obvious that Caesar attributed a Germanic origin to the Belgae not because he knew they spoke a Germanic language but because they had recently migrated from east of the Rhine. This is a topic that has been done to death, by the way.

    The origin of the Cimbri and Teutoni is a separate issue, also much debated.

    Interestingly, the Hinxton Celts were recovered from the territory of the Belgic Catuvellauni and lived and died there at the time the Catuvellauni lived there, and they were R1b-L21.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-13-2018 at 09:10 PM.
     


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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I think that in order to deal with the issue of the anglo-saxon invasion of britain we need to remember that

    1) In the last centuries BC britain was occupied ( since when we do not know with certainty) by a group of belgian tribes that define themselves as germans so we have a likely presence in the east of the country of a pretty much sizable germanic speaking population

    2) during roman times we have in britain a large inflow of soldiers and troops of germanic origin ( especially frisians that spoke a language quite close to AS). So during roman occupation the "germanification" of britannia was reinforced.

    When the legions left the country I think many of those "germanic" were left to their own devices and at this point the arrival of more germanic tribes like AS Jutes tilted the balance against the celtic speaking part of the isles. I think back then it was not a matter of "race": germans against celts. It was just a matter of taking the land/defending the land. My personal opinion is that what really gave the AS the hedge was that they embraced the new faith christianity more eagerly and more willingly so they looked more trustworthy at the eyes of the ecclesiastical authority ( correct me if I'm wrong but Bede links the demise of the britons as a punishment by God).

    I think what we had after the conversion is that celtic speaking population switched to germanic and by doing so they created some of the most peculiar features of the english language as the do and ing form which are clearly of celtic origin.

    But I must admit that the situation in the Low Lands is in some sense very confusing in the (pre)Roman time, the Celtic civilization had indeed a severe effect on the Germanic one even on the Jastorf civilization. There is still debate about their language....not only of the Belgae but also of the Frisii.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    While the question may eventually be at least partly solved by genetics, I have no doubt the answer won't be found by simply counting the amount of P312 in Britain. There are three P312 subclades that at the very least are predominantly Germanic . . .
    I agree with that. DF19, DF99 and L238 appear to be primarily Germanic.

    We know L21 got to Britain and Ireland with the Kurgan Bell Beaker people and thus far hasn't turned up in Migration Period Germans (unlike DF99, which has turned up in the Lombards, a Germanic tribe ultimately of Scandinavian origin).

    L21 also turned up in the Hinxton Celts, so it was pretty obviously well represented among the ancient Britons. Those other three P312 clades I mentioned above, along with U106 and I-M253, have a much more southeastern center of gravity in Britain than does L21, which increases in frequency as one moves west and north.
     


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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    1. The Belgae were not germanic not in Caesarian sense (left of the Rhine is Celtic, right of the Rhine is Germanic) and not in genetic sense.
    2. The Frisii of the (pre) Roman time were not the Frisians of the migration time. The new Frisians were a conglomerate of Saxons and Scandinavians. The Germanization of the Frisians was definitely a product of the migration time not before. Just as in England was the case.
    That the "new frisians" were in realty made up of a large number of migrating angles and saxons doesn't change a bit the fact that the "old frisians" were a germanic speaking population. That does not change that these frisians were a large proportion of germanic troops in the roman legions in britain.
    could you link me some papers that talks about the germanization of the frisians since I've never heard of this theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    That the "new frisians" were in realty made up of a large number of migrating angles and saxons doesn't change a bit the fact that the "old frisians" were a germanic speaking population. That does not change that these frisians were a large proportion of germanic troops in the roman legions in britain.
    could you link me some papers that talks about the germanization of the frisians since I've never heard of this theory.
    No that's not a fact, it is still in dispute....some say Germanic, some a in between till even a kind of Celtic...
    Yep the old Frisii were there, there is some prove along the Hadrian wall.
    This is one along the many:
    https://www.academia.edu/35420221/Od...ingian_periods
    Last edited by Finn; 08-13-2018 at 09:28 PM.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You make Caesar more of a linguist than he was. The tribal leaders of the Belgae had Celtic names, and the names of the tribes were Celtic, yet you seem to think they spoke some form of Germanic. Yeah, that makes sense.

    It's pretty obvious that Caesar attributed a Germanic origin to the Belgae not because he knew they spoke a Germanic language but because they had recently migrated from east of the Rhine. This is a topic that has been done to death, by the way.
    Ethnonyms of the Belgae tribes are key to know whether they were rather 'Celtic' or 'Germanic':

    Gallic: Remi, Bellovaci, Morini, Atrebates...
    Germanic:Nervii, Aduatuci, Condruses, Menapi…

    Basically Celtae and Belgae were more alike than Aquitani
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I used "apartheid" mainly because that's a popular term I've head thrown around when talking about the idea that the Anglo-Saxons simply outbred the Britons via a system that kept the latter as an underclass. What has been used as evidence for this before are certain laws regarding the Britons, giving them a lower wergeld than a Saxon, etc.

    That said I imagine it may have been the highest elite or royal lines of Anglo-Saxons which would have had great British admixture since they often were intermarrying with British princes for political purposes, such as Oswiu of Northumbria's marriage to Riemmelth of Rheged, etc.
    The "apartheid" thing is based on this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635457/

    Here is one response to it: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../275/1650/2423

    Popular article about it here: https://www.newscientist.com/article...-by-apartheid/

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    "I agree with some that, but it took the Anglo-Saxons awhile to embrace Christianity. They were fiercely pagan at first. That is reflected in the names of the days of the week in English, most of them still derived from old Germanic gods and at least one goddess."

    This will probably turn out to be the dumbest post of the year. Are you aware that even the romance languages maintain the old pagan words for the day of the week? That means that this is not a sign of an unwillingness to convert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You make Caesar more of a linguist than he was. The tribal leaders of the Belgae had Celtic names, and the names of the tribes were Celtic, yet you seem to think they spoke some form of Germanic. Yeah, that makes sense.

    It's pretty obvious that Caesar attributed a Germanic origin to the Belgae not because he knew they spoke a Germanic language but because they had recently migrated from east of the Rhine. This is a topic that has been done to death, by the way.

    The origin of the Cimbri and Teutoni is a separate issue, also much debated.

    Interestingly, the Hinxton Celts were recovered from the territory of the Belgic Catuvellauni and lived and died there at the time the Catuvellauni lived there, and they were R1b-L21.
    Ok so would you tell me please to which language family belonged the one spoken by the belgae?

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