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Thread: Angle vs. Saxon

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    Angle vs. Saxon

    Anyone know of any good recommended reading on the main qualities which may have differentiated Angle from Saxon? I speak of terms of culture, paganism, social organization, art, etc. but am also interested in linguistic differences, perhaps in what manner they saw themselves as initially different, and so on. They are often spoken of as one and I suppose that largely was the case or increasingly became so, but initially tribal designations obviously differentiated them, their claimed geographic homelands were different, and I believe I recall reading that perhaps their burial practices differed or that cults of some deities were prominent in some places but not others (if I recall perhaps Woden was more Anglian?)

    In any case, please share whatever information you have or if you have recommended books, articles, please point them in my direction.

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    I presume that the forthcoming book from our late Jean Manco ,The Origins of the Anglo-Saxons, will address some of your questions
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    I presume that the forthcoming book from our late Jean Manco ,The Origins of the Anglo-Saxons, will address some of your questions
    I agree that Jean's book should be excellent, based on the quality of her other books and her posts here. I'd also recommend The English Settlements by Myres. It's stood the test of many decades. The introduction alone will inspire you, where he describes his walks on foot in England before the motorways, his sketching of objects in collections across northern Europe and his general love of the subject. It's a book that will grip you on every page as well as giving you a sound grounding in the material culture including the differences between Angle and Saxon pottery styles and brooches. I've returned to that book many times over the years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I agree that Jean's book should be excellent, based on the quality of her other books and her posts here. I'd also recommend The English Settlements by Myres. It's stood the test of many decades. The introduction alone will inspire you, where he describes his walks on foot in England before the motorways, his sketching of objects in collections across northern Europe and his general love of the subject. It's a book that will grip you on every page as well as giving you a sound grounding in the material culture including the differences between Angle and Saxon pottery styles and brooches. I've returned to that book many times over the years.
    For those interested the introduction can be read here:

    https://books.google.com/books/about...kp_read_button
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-16-2018 at 07:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    For those interested the introduction can be read here:

    https://books.google.com/books/about...kp_read_button
    Thanks JMcB. I defy anyone not to want to read the book after that introduction. I'd be interested in your thoughts if anyone does read it or has already. I've read many books on the Migration Period in general but Myres always inspires me. He was one of those archaeologists whose views have weathered our recent DNA insights too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Anyone know of any good recommended reading on the main qualities which may have differentiated Angle from Saxon? I speak of terms of culture, paganism, social organization, art, etc. but am also interested in linguistic differences, perhaps in what manner they saw themselves as initially different, and so on. They are often spoken of as one and I suppose that largely was the case or increasingly became so, but initially tribal designations obviously differentiated them, their claimed geographic homelands were different, and I believe I recall reading that perhaps their burial practices differed or that cults of some deities were prominent in some places but not others (if I recall perhaps Woden was more Anglian?)

    In any case, please share whatever information you have or if you have recommended books, articles, please point them in my direction.
    as a side topic I post this interesting study on how it came to be that the Angles became the name of all the germanic populations in England. It seems it all stem from Gregory the Great misunderstanding of the exact proportions of Angles, Jutes and Saxons. according to the author till Gregory the Great the "english" were called Saxons. Only after the conversion the name Angles ( and hence english and England) became prevalent.

    https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j...E86Ulcqyc-Y8v7

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    Also for those interested, here’s a free chapter from D.W. Rollason’s book:
    Northumbria 500-1100 : creation and destruction of a kingdom, Cambridge University Press. (2003) Chapter 3 Pages 57-109

    Chapter 3

    The Northumbrians: origins of a people

    http://dro.dur.ac.uk/457/1/457.pdf?D...dac0hsg+dhi0ts
    Last edited by JMcB; 08-16-2018 at 08:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Also for those interested, here’s a free chapter from D.W. Rollason’s book:
    Northumbria 500-1100 : creation and destruction of a kingdom, Cambridge University Press. (2003) Chapter 3 Pages 57-109

    Chapter 3

    The Northumbrians: origins of a people

    http://dro.dur.ac.uk/457/1/457.pdf?D...dac0hsg+dhi0ts
    Thanks, this is right up my alley as I've come to an increased awareness that despite the likely Scottish national origin of my paternal ancestors they were of a family most associated with the Southeastern Scottish Borders and Northern England, the old kingdom of Northumbria generally and perhaps Bernicia in particular. Interestingly enough as an American ones main family lines could be from anywhere but it so happens that my mother's mother's line was also originally from around Morpeth in Northumberland, so two of my four main family lines are from this area.

    Part general curiosity and part inspiration derived from wanting to know what differentiated my Anglian ancestors from the Saxons is what spurred me to create this thread.

    That aside I recall reading something about how Woden/Odin worship may have been more intense in Anglian lands compared to Saxon during the pagan period but can't find the source now. Anyone hear something similar or am I recalling incorrectly?
    Last edited by Gwydion; 08-16-2018 at 09:33 PM.

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    I certainly don't remember reading any difference regarding Woden. Place names, royal descent and so on reflect a common veneration as far as I remember. Wotan certainly played a big part in German as opposed to Scandinavian legend, although he was equally important as Woden and Odin in the north.
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    I'm not exactly sure what the religious differences may have been with the Angles and Saxons, but given their proximity on the continent I feel their mythology was fairly similar, maybe with more emphasis put on certain deities over others, and perhaps that varied with each family within different parts of the greater "tribe". I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but I don't think Woden/Odin acquired his "Chief of the Gods" status in Anglo-Saxon paganism. That was more of a Scandinavian evolution of Odin.

    Part of the reason we are missing so much information on Anglo-Saxon paganism is due to the relatively early conversion. We get accounts of seeming memories of paganism and the deities in the old pre-Christian Anglo-Saxons, but we also get clear descriptions of Scandinavian deities with certain works from Anglo-Saxon England. What we know about Anglo-Saxon Woden, Thunor and Tiw is fairly limited.

    However we know that there were four dialects of Old English: Northumbrian and Mercian composing the Anglian dialects and Kentish and West Saxon composing the other two dialects. I expect that Kentish and West Saxon had more Saxon influence than their northerly neighbours in terms of linguistics.

    Perhaps we are looking at Anglo-Saxon Britain, especially early settlement as just an Angle-Saxon-Jute thing when there were definitely other Germanic groups settling and they weren't all invaders. Some were fleeing the continent for environmental reasons.

    I am enjoying the increase in Anglo-Saxon oriented threads lately, while I find Celtic history fascinating, the Anglo-Saxons are an interesting part of British history.
    Last edited by spruithean; 08-16-2018 at 09:43 PM.

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