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Thread: Angle vs. Saxon

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I'm really interested in this Saxon and Angles thing but I will make it somewhat broader.

    In this respect I recently have read John Grisby, Beowulf & Grendel (2005). In essence Grisby states from the 'Danish' room the Odin culture got popular in the fifth/sixth century. That spread with the 'Danish' influence around the southern North Sea!? There are much signs that underline this.....

    Alex Woolf suggests:





    In how fare the influence of Danish was restricted to the 'eastern North Sea and the Baltic Sea' ? I guess they also along the southern North Sea (like Alex Woolf seems to suggest too).

    This is also the period when the Grossstamme and early states appear on the scene (Nicolay 2014).

    Capelle (1998) speaks of a 'reformation of the Saxons' in their core area the Northern Weser-Elbe area (so along the North Sea Coast). This was mainly because of the Danish influx. Hauck was in 1970 the first one who suggested that, based on archeological findings.

    So in the end this suggest roughly for migration time (Nicolay 2017):

    1. A Saxon phase (c. AD 390-500) with Saxon style brooches.
    2. A Scandic/Danish phase (c. AD 475-550) with bracteate (so called type D) and crucifix brooches.

    The picture published by spuithaen:
    http://www.friedrichfroebel.com/cruciform.jpg

    In this respect Nicolay (2017) speaks of four 'hotspots' in the Southern North Sea area of phase 2, from east to west:

    1. the area around Sievern, Weser-Elbe area along the coast;
    2. the area around Wijnaldum, most northwestern part of Friesland;
    3. Eastern Kent;
    4. Northern Norfolk.

    Please correct or add!
    Is the Eastern Kent culture he refers to the one that saw Frankish-style brooches and other jewelry in the local burials? Those artefacts don't show up much outside of Kent within England. I'm thinking of radiate-headed fibulae and so on.

    ADD: Thanks for including the early Danes because I'd like to know more about when and how they took the name, given its absence in early sources on the tribes. Where and when is it thought they formed? Were they a confederation such as the Franks and Alemanni?
    Last edited by JonikW; 08-18-2018 at 10:22 AM.
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    I can recommend The Early Germans by Malcolm Todd. The second edition from 2007 is available in a soft cover edition. He is a professor emeritus of archaeology at the University of Durham. After a general introduction about their common culture, he then discusses the history of the most well known Germanic tribes, including the Saxons and the Angles.
    If anyone is interested in getting a feel for the book, there’s a pretty generous sample here:

    https://books.google.com/books/about...kp_read_button

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Is the Eastern Kent culture he refers to the one that saw Frankish-style brooches and other jewelry in the local burials? Those artefacts don't show up much outside of Kent within England. I'm thinking of radiate-headed fibulae and so on.

    ADD: Thanks for including the early Danes because I'd like to know more about when and how they took the name, given its absence in early sources on the tribes. Where and when is it thought they formed? Were they a confederation such as the Franks and Alemanni?
    Thanks JonikW! What I read in literature is that Kent is indeed influenced by the Frankish style. And according to Nicolay (2017) this is in the sixth century Friesland for silver jewelry and later on also for gold the case. So it seems like if it follows the same developments.

    In the early middle ages in the seventh and eight century the Merowings/Franks and the Danes developed to an 'early state' key players in continental NW Europe. At that time the people of Friesland and Anglo-Saxon England lived in a in between zone, and traded between them. Friesland became eventually part of the Frankish empire.

    But back to the Angles. I guess they became part of the Danish 'early state'. The must visible thing of a (new born) state s a sense of a border. And the Danish kingdom had a very early and until now visible border: the Danevirke.

    According to Danish wiki the first aims were probably in the fifth century and about 500 it gets serious business. That correspondences neatly with the development of the early Danish kingdom! Besides that it shows that Angeln in the eastern part of outmost NW Germany is incorporated in that kingdom.

    Angeln heartland of the the Angels (Polish wiki):
    Angeln.png

    And the Danevirke inclusive the Anglian roads!(Dutch wiki):
    Danevirke.png

    So the Angeln became de facto part of the early Danish kingdom.

    And about that time (the beginning of the Danevirke) we have a fist evidence of a legendary king: Chlochilaicus as mentioned by Gregory of Tours (often referred as Hygelac of Beowulf) .

    Wiki:
    The raid to Frisia enabled N. F. S. Grundtvig[3] to approximate the date of Hygelac's death to ca 516, because a raid to France under a King Chlochilaicus, king of the Danes, is mentioned by Gregory of Tours. In that source he is recorded as invading the Frankish Kingdoms during the reign of Theodericus I (died 534), the son of Clovis ("Chlodovechius"), the king of the Franks in the early sixth century, and was killed in the ensuing chaos after the Scandinavian raiders were caught by the sudden appearance of a military response force led by Theodebertus, the son of Theodocius. Gregory of Tours calls this king Chlochilaicus Danish.[4] He is called the king of Getae (rex Getarum) in the Liber Monstrorum and king of the Goths (rege Gotorum) in Liber historiae Francorum.[5] After cutting the Geatish danger, the rest of the survivors took to sea in such disordered haste that they left their dead on the field, including their king. The Franks must have taken back whatever had been taken in pillage as well as spoils of the battlefield; and it is reported by Gregory that they found the Scandinavian monarch (Hygelac)'s corpse so awe-inspiring due his extraordinary height —which is implied by his name, perhaps a sobriquet like Longshanks ( Edward I) and not his real one— that as a pagan barbarian not entitled to burial, his remains were exposed for a long time in the nearest Merovingian Court as a curiosity, following the usual triumphal trophy exhibition customary after battle or pirate captures.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygelac

    IMO we see two things:
    1. The Danish king has expansive ambitions along the southern North Sea;
    2. This is a prefiguration of two mighty kingdoms that of the Franks and the Danes.
    Last edited by Finn; 08-19-2018 at 02:54 PM.

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