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Thread: The Mystery of R-M479

  1. #1
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    The Mystery of R-M479

    Hello.

    Iíve just had me yDna results from 23andMe and Iím a little bemused as to how little information there is about m479.

    I canít find any subclades - do these exist?

    Also canít find anyone else who has the same haplogroup.

    Can I put my 23andMe data through another tool to extract further info?

    Thanks in advance.

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  3. #2
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    R2 (M479)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/

    You can also look at the ISOGG R tree which is now a Google doc

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    GEDMatch: A828783 (autosomal DNA), 9427684 (GEDCOM) for segment matching DO NOT POST ADMIXTURE REPORTS USING MY KIT
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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awan01 View Post
    Hello.

    Iíve just had me yDna results from 23andMe and Iím a little bemused as to how little information there is about m479.

    I canít find any subclades - do these exist?

    Also canít find anyone else who has the same haplogroup.

    Can I put my 23andMe data through another tool to extract further info?

    Thanks in advance.

    R-M479 = R2. It's always nice to see more R2 people on this forum as we're not that common! There's relatively little information on R2 as its rare outside of South Asia.

    There are loads of subclades underneath R-M479 however 23andme don't test for most of them. I've also tested with 23andme, and plugging my raw DNA download into MorleyDNA's Y-SNP Haplogroup Predictor showed that I didn't test positive for any subclades below R-M124 (R2a). You can plug your raw DNA download there as well, but you might not get a very detailed result as you're still limited by the relatively small number of SNPs below R-M479 that 23andme test for (their Y-SNP tree is very outdated). If you're specifically asking about tools that look at Y-DNA then MorleyDNA's Y-SNP Haplogroup Predictor is your best bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    R2 (M479)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R2/

    You can also look at the ISOGG R tree which is now a Google doc

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0
    If you go to the links posted above, you'll get a better idea of the many subclades below R-M479. For example, most South Asian men who come under R2 belong to a subclade called R-L295 (R2a2b1b2b - ISOGG 2018) and almost all Jewish men who come under R2 belong to either R-FGC13201 (R2a2a1a1a1 - ISOGG 2018) or R-L288 (R2a2b2b1 - ISOGG 2018). I could be curious to know where you're from.

    If you're unhappy with 23andme's accuracy and want to purchase another test to determine your paternal group, here are a couple of cheaper options for you.

    LivingDNA - Offer at $89 as of this post (normally $99) + delivery. Ancestry + maternal and paternal lineages offered.
    Their Y-SNP tree for R2 is up-to-date right now, so you'll get a more detailed Y-DNA subclade. In my case, 23andme gave me R2a (initially R, however they had a recent reassignment to their most recent customers) and LivingDNA gave me R2a2b1b2a1a1.
    Its important to note that their Y-SNP testing does give you false positives (in my case, me and another LivingDNA customer have been declared positive for SNPs under O and R1b even though I'm under R2 and he's under N).

    YSEQ - R2-M479 Panel - $88 + delivery: Only tests paternal lineage and only for customers who have already tested positive for the M479 SNP. Will pinpoint your position on their (up-to-date) Y-SNP tree. Paternal subclade would be more reliable than LivingDNA. They also test for individual SNPs as well ($18 each). In fact I've ordered one SNP under R2a2b1b2a1a1 to verify my LivingDNA result (which I'm almost sure is correct, but its only $18).

    For more information on Y-SNP testing (including other options, as well as Y-STR testing), I would recommend that you have a look here: https://isogg.org/wiki/Y-SNP_testing

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    Thank you so much for the detailed information. Iím relatively new to all this and learning a lot about my ancestory.
    My family is original from the NW Pakistan (Salt Range) and have lived there for quite a few generations. We have a family try that traces ancestry back to Arabia but Iím not sure the authenticity of this now given the haplogroup data.

    My gedmatch (Harrapa) and others are typical of most people from this area as I understand it. 32% SouthAsian 40%Indo-Iranian/West Asian/ 15% Caucasus and 10% NE European the rest is noise. Other admixtures seem to have a similar outcome with some placing me more towards west Asian and Caucasusís. Obviously these arenít perfect but attempting to reconcile family tree / gedmatch and haplogroup data to get a better understanding of Migration patterns and ancestry.

    You mentioned additional subclades under M479. Are these all loacated in South Asia or have these moves through different areas?

    Where are you from if you donít mind me asking?

    Iíll probably start with MorleyDNA to see what subclades I test for. Any other information to better help me peice together information would be great! Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awan01 View Post
    Thank you so much for the detailed information. I’m relatively new to all this and learning a lot about my ancestory.
    My family is original from the NW Pakistan (Salt Range) and have lived there for quite a few generations. We have a family try that traces ancestry back to Arabia but I’m not sure the authenticity of this now given the haplogroup data.

    My gedmatch (Harrapa) and others are typical of most people from this area as I understand it. 32% SouthAsian 40%Indo-Iranian/West Asian/ 15% Caucasus and 10% NE European the rest is noise. Other admixtures seem to have a similar outcome with some placing me more towards west Asian and Caucasus’s. Obviously these aren’t perfect but attempting to reconcile family tree / gedmatch and haplogroup data to get a better understanding of Migration patterns and ancestry.

    You mentioned additional subclades under M479. Are these all loacated in South Asia or have these moves through different areas?

    Where are you from if you don’t mind me asking?

    I’ll probably start with MorleyDNA to see what subclades I test for. Any other information to better help me peice together information would be great! Thanks.
    Can you post results from harappa and other calculators from gedmatch?

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awan01 View Post
    You mentioned additional subclades under M479. Are these all loacated in South Asia or have these moves through different areas?

    Where are you from if you donít mind me asking?

    Iíll probably start with MorleyDNA to see what subclades I test for. Any other information to better help me peice together information would be great! Thanks.
    Most R2 men are located in E/SE/S India however the origin of R2 was not near that region. To give an example, the most common subclade in Western Europe is R-M269 (R1b1a1a2 - ISOGG 2018), with its levels being highest in Wales and Ireland. However the origin of R-M269 is known to either be SE Europe or West Asia, it is merely the case that men carrying the M269 mutation moved Northwest into Europe (around the Neolithic period) and concentrations of R-M269 increased the most along the western edge of Europe due to the Atlantic preventing further expansion westwards.

    Its the same logic with R2. Most R2 men in the world (and roughly 100% of R2 men in India) come under a subclade called R-P267 (R2a2 - ISOGG 2018), which has it origins in or near the Zagros Mountains (SW/W Iran). R2 would've been introduced into the Indian subcontinent through various waves of migration from Iran beginning at around 10500 years ago. By far the most successful subclade in India comes under a subclade of R-P267 known as R-L295 (R2a2b1b2b - ISOGG 2018) and, despite being located all throughout India, peaks along the Southeastern coast due to the eastern half of the Indian Ocean preventing further expansion in the SE direction.

    I'm from England myself however my parents were both born near Nakodar, Punjab (IN). Looking at details of my clan (surname), my recent paternal lineage is apparently traced to Sialkot, a region of NE Pakistan located near Jammu. A separate cluster of R-P267 (L295-) is common around Northern Pakistan (including Sialkot and the Salt Range) - I myself am positive for P267 and negative for L295, you might be the same, coming from NW Pakistan.

    MorleyDNA is good for seeing whether you're positive for M124 and other SNPs below however 23andmes Y-SNP tree for R2 is very outdated so I don't think you'll get much information here. Its incredibly unlikely that you're M124-, in which case you're probably SK2163+. What other information are you interested in? You could plug your 23andme raw download into James Licks mtDNA Haplogroup Predictor (https://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/) and get a more detailed result for your maternal haplogroup. You could upload your raw download to FTDNA or Wegene as well.

    As you're already familiar with GEDmatch, would you be okay with providing your Oracle results for Eurogenes K13 and HarappaWorld? I am curious

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    Arron thanks for the detail. Really appreciate the effort. Please DM for more info.

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    Here are my Admixture and Oracle results. I'd be interested in your analysis Aaronbee and others. Aaronbee can you share yours also? Sounds like we have a fair amount in common.

    It seems like I probably need to send off another sample to gather more detailed and final Y-Haplo data. There are so many tests out there, which one would you recommend as an absolute final one? I'm not really interested in anything other than getting haplogroup data.

    I am having trouble using the morley dna tool with the 23 and me raw data so if you can point me to a guide that would be useful. Also once I get the data what am I supposed to be looking for?

    AaronBee you mentioned SK2163+ how far back would that be and from where does it originate? I ran a google search and found one instance found in Iraq on r2dna.

    Results below.... thanks for the insights.

    HarappaWorld Oracle results:
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 39.3
    2 S-Indian 32.83
    3 Caucasian 13.38
    4 NE-Euro 9.8
    5 SW-Asian 1.45
    6 Papuan 0.91
    7 Siberian 0.9
    8 American 0.79
    9 Beringian 0.32
    10 Mediterranean 0.31

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 2.32
    2 punjabi (harappa) 3.24
    3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 3.51
    4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.03
    5 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 4.34
    6 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 4.36
    7 kashmiri (harappa) 4.62
    8 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 4.89
    9 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 5.58
    10 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.21
    11 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.27
    12 sindhi (harappa) 6.3
    13 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.48
    14 up-muslim (harappa) 6.64
    15 nepalese-a (xing) 8.89
    16 sindhi (hgdp) 8.91
    17 pathan (hgdp) 9.45
    18 up-brahmin (harappa) 9.58
    19 bhatia (harappa) 9.71
    20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.51
    Mixed Mode Population Sharing


    Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 South_Asian 47.23
    2 West_Asian 35.58
    3 North_Atlantic 6.1
    4 Baltic 5.8
    5 East_Med 1.87
    6 Amerindian 1.71
    7 Northeast_African 0.63
    8 Red_Sea 0.42
    9 Oceanian 0.38
    10 Siberian 0.29
    11 Sub-Saharan 0.01
    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sindhi 5.26
    2 Punjabi_Jat 5.86
    3 Pathan 9.3
    4 Gujarati 12.22
    5 Brahmin_UP 12.78
    6 Burusho 13.09
    7 Kalash 13.93
    8 Kshatriya 14.22
    9 Bangladeshi 20.23
    10 Afghan_Pashtun 21.14
    11 Dharkar 22.04
    12 Balochi 22.58
    13 Brahui 23.01
    14 Kanjar 23.05
    15 Makrani 23.5
    16 Velamas 24.73
    17 Kurumba 25.81
    18 Uttar_Pradesh 26.26
    19 Kol 27.55
    20 Dusadh 27.86
    Last edited by Awan01; 08-22-2018 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Errors

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  16. #9
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    Welcome to the R2 clan!

    Unless you suspect ancestry from SC Asia/NW S Asia (i.e. the Burusho, whom we can deduce have the most true R2*-M479), there won't be much utility in using auDNA to confirm the nature of your paternal line.

    23andMe used to have a Y-DNA/mtDNA Haplogroup marker tool, which allowed you to confirm which downstream SNP's they tested for. The first order of business is to determine whether you've been tested for the M124 marker, which defines the R2a subclade. The absolute majority of people who belong to R2-M479 are R2a-M124+.

    aaronbee's comments regarding L295 are spot on, although there won't be much utility in testing for that important mutation without first confirming your M124 status.

    If you end up being M124-, then the standard nomenclature for your line would be R2*-M479(xR2a/M124).

    R2*-M479 is most prevalent in SC Asia/NW S Asia (Burusho, though sporadically found in other neighbouring groups, such as Afghan Pashtuns). R2* is also thinly distributed across West and Central Eurasia (Myres et al.).

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    Thank you. I have managed to get my sample through morleyDNA and have received the following most likely result:

    R2
    R-PF7510 (R-F761, R-F1018)


    M124 and P249 has also come up in RED so assume that is negative? (R2a L266/PF6108, M124, P249, PF6109/P267)

    R2a L266/PF6108, M124, P249, PF6109/P267
    R2a1 L295, CTS10033
    R2a2 L263
    R2a3 L1069
    R2a~1ß F1092, F1159, F1758, F3604
    R2a~2ß L288

    I am lost at what I should be looking at with the Morley output or what the results even mean. I'm interested to know what this tells me about the paternal origin in recent history. 2k years or so.

    Can anyone shed light on the above?

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