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Thread: 6th c. Slavic women (Av1, Av2) buried according to the custom of the Avars

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    1. Is that your version of P37 tree? User "Andrii Lundiak" posts regular updates for this tree to I2a community on FTDNA. It that you?
    I am not Andrii. He is member of FTDNA I2a1 group as am I. There I post it regularly.

    I also use this tree, and, frankly speaking, I mixed French and German for the only one CTS1028+ Y3120- because of this tree, there are just different shades of yellow for German and French.
    Sorry. Maybe I change this in the next version.

    2. East Germans have significant Slavic admixture, we should not be surprised to find Slavic Y-haplogroups in East Germany.
    Of course. But there are not many people who are Y3120*. I know only two cases.

    Y3120 both by the TMRCA time and by its modern descendants is the best candidate for Early Slavic Y-DNA.
    Yes. But Y18331 is not Slavic. So, not all Y3120 is Slavic.
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
    Slovenian 2.07
    Croatian 2.39
    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
    Trace 1%

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post

    Well, Luther might have had Slavic ancestors.
    He was certainly born in the part of Germany that was flooded by West Slavs just a thousand years before who were subsequently Germanized. So this is possible.

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  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    He was certainly born in the part of Germany that was flooded by West Slavs just a thousand years before who were subsequently Germanized. So this is possible.
    In any case Luther's ideas owe much to Jan Huss so basically also from a purely cultural point of view there is a good chunck of "slavic" in him: even tough Luther says that he was "unconsciously hussite" I do not think he was fully sincere.

    quote

    Martin Luther (d. 1546) thought very highly of John Huss (d. 1415). Luther first read Huss when he was newly ordained at the church in Erfurt. Here’s how Luther explained it:

    ‘When I was a tyro [novice] at Erfurt …I found in the library of the convent a volume of The Sermons of John Huss. When I read the title I had a great curiosity to know what doctrines that heresiarch had propagated, since a volume like this in a public library had been saved from the fire. On reading I was overwhelmed with astonishment. I could not understand for what cause they had burnt so great a man, who explained the Scriptures with so much gravity and skill. But as the very name of Huss was held in so great abomination that I imagined the sky would fall and the sun be darkened if I made honourable mention of him, I shut the book and went away with no little indignation. This, however, was my comfort, that perhaps Huss had written these things before he fell into heresy. For as yet I knew not what was done at the Council of Constance’ (Mon. Hus. vol. i. Preface).

    A few years later Luther wrote this to Spalatin:

    ‘I have hitherto taught and held all the opinions of Huss without knowing it. With a like unconsciousness has Staupitz taught them. We are all of us Hussites without knowing it. I do not know what to think for amazement.’

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  6. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    The clade Y18331 is almost completely non-Slavic and probably in the time when it separated (200BC) all Y3120 lines were non-Slavic.
    Most Y3120 lines probably very soon came under Slavic infuence, but that infuence evidentially did not include all Y3120 lines.
    From that I belive that non-Slavic ancestry of Luther family is more probable.
    I beg to disagree. Firstly, the fact that today subclade Y18331 seems to be associated predominantly with Greek ancestry, doesn't make the Luther lineage more likely to be of non-Slavic origin, unless you claim that Luther's patrilineage is of deep Greek ancestry (which seems highly unlikely). Secondly, both Greece and East Germany are well known to have been the target of the Early Slavic expansion, so it seems perfectly possible that both Y18331 and the Luther Y3120* lineage were at some point associated with the Early Slavs. In other words, although I agree that clade Y3120 could have been initially associated with non-Slavic (most likely Germanic or Celtic) speakers, we have no data strongly suggesting that any surviving sublineage/subclade (among those currently known to us) was not a part of the Early Slavic community.

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  8. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    I am not Andrii. He is member of FTDNA I2a1 group as am I. There I post it regularly.
    DId I understand it correctly, that you alone made this tree, without Andrii?

    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Yes. But Y18331 is not Slavic. So, not all Y3120 is Slavic.
    Y23115 is a Jewish group, it has TMRCA about 1000 ybp. The best possible theory about this branch is that some Greek converted to Judaism about 1000AD.
    Other branches are spread in modern Greece, Russia, Poland, Luthiania.
    We know well about mass Slavic migrations to modern Greece in 6th century AD.
    So, all this facts alltogether support an idea that this branch was born from Y3120 in the Early Slav community, and a few centuries later, in 6th century AD clans/tribes rich of this haplogroup migrated to Greece, but not everyone of this branch migrated.

    Right, majority of people with Y-chromosome of this happlogroup are Greeks and speak Greek language which is definitely not-Slavic.
    But I guess, the branch itself still can be called Slavic, and should be called Slavic, because it was one of Y-haplogroups of Early Slav community.

  9. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    DId I understand it correctly, that you alone made this tree, without Andrii?
    Yes. I made it alone and I alone update it from time to time.
    I don't know why do you think that Andrii made it.


    Regarding Y3120* I also think that it may be Slavic, but we can not be sure about that.
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
    Slovenian 2.07
    Croatian 2.39
    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
    Trace 1%

  10. #187
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  12. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    I have checked one BAM file, it seems that under L621 only S17250 was covered like it is written in the paper, there is no Y4460, Z17855 or A2512.
    I am not an expert in these things, hope someone else will check BAM files soon.

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     Megalophias (04-08-2019)

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