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Thread: 6th c. Slavic women (Av1, Av2) buried according to the custom of the Avars

  1. #11
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    I2a1a2b (Y5596>A815)

    Croatia Austrian Empire Slovenia
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Av1 - Gedmatch Genesis PE7910098

    Eurogenes K36
    Basque 2.36 Pct
    Central_Euro 13.16 Pct
    East_Balkan 4.62 Pct
    East_Central_Euro 20.48 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 14.95 Pct
    Fennoscandian 8.32 Pct
    French 8.61 Pct
    Italian 7.54 Pct
    North_Atlantic 11.10 Pct
    North_Sea 8.51 Pct
    West_Med 0.36 Pct

    99833 SNPs used in this evaluation

    Av2 - Gedmatch Genesis FP8983383

    Eurogenes K36
    Basque 1.61 Pct
    Central_Euro 11.52 Pct
    East_Balkan 8.13 Pct
    East_Central_Euro 28.94 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 17.25 Pct
    Fennoscandian 10.40 Pct
    French 6.29 Pct
    North_Atlantic 7.09 Pct
    North_Sea 8.78 Pct

    96725 SNPs used in this evaluation
    Their position on K36 PCA plot of Anthrogenica users:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kjo154s1q7...1And2.png?dl=0
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
    Slovenian 2.07
    Croatian 2.39
    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
    Trace 1%

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  3. #12
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    R1a > M198 > YP 1337

    Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    Two randomly selected samples of Avar women in Hungary were tested. Both of them were genetically Slavic with no Asian admixture.
    What is the probability now that majority or all of Pannonian Avar women were genetically Slavic with no Asian admixture?
    Who were the Pannonian Avars/Abars then?

    According to Ptolemy some Avars lived around Vistula river in 2nd century AD:

    Attachment 25405

    http://www.poselska.nazwa.pl/wieczor...acy-malopolske

    It is particularly interesting because Avars/Abars were often linked with Abaris the Hyperborean.
    We must wait for samples from Avar warrior graves (and from starting period of their migration, later could be heavily mixed, but lackily they didn't cremated?). But from ancient chronicles we know that they phenotype was on Mongoloid side. We will see.

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  5. #13
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    R1a > M198 > YP 1337

    Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Av1 - Gedmatch Genesis PE7910098

    Eurogenes K36
    Basque 2.36 Pct
    Central_Euro 13.16 Pct
    East_Balkan 4.62 Pct
    East_Central_Euro 20.48 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 14.95 Pct
    Fennoscandian 8.32 Pct
    French 8.61 Pct
    Italian 7.54 Pct
    North_Atlantic 11.10 Pct
    North_Sea 8.51 Pct
    West_Med 0.36 Pct

    99833 SNPs used in this evaluation

    n
    Mixed south and Western Poland and western / central Ukraine. I think "Masovian-like" Av2 was form northern Slavic migration route, and Av1 from southern. Archeologists told about it as I remember?
    There is also slight submerged Germanic element?

    Code:
            Pl_Upper_Silesia          Ukraine_Kiev_region                     PL_North Greater_Poland_Wielkopolska)        Pl_South_(Małopolska) 
                        1.000362                     1.026543                     1.039059                     1.040052                     1.100902 
                        Slovakia               Lusatian_Sorbs              Ukraine_Western                   Kashubians              Ukraine_Poltava 
                        1.105205                     1.105489                     1.134033                     1.156463                     1.174005
    "distance%=0.949"

    Pl_Upper_Silesia,26.8
    Ukraine_Kiev_region,23.6
    Greater_Poland_Wielkopolska),14.2
    PL_North,11.8
    RU_Tver,4.2
    Ukraine_Volhyn,3.8
    Sachsen,3
    Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),2.6
    Thüringen,1.6
    Ukraine_Zhytomyr,1.6
    Slovakia,1
    Croats_BIH,0.6
    Czechs,0.6
    Ireland,0.6
    Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,0.6
    Tirol,0.6
    Scotland,0.4
    SE_England,0.4
    Bosniaks,0.2
    Donau_Schwaben,0.2
    GR_Thessaly,0.2
    IT_Lombardia,0.2
    NL_Overijssel,0.2
    Slovenia,0.2
    South-West_Romania,0.2
    Ukraine_Chernivtsi,0.2
    Ukraine_Vinnytsya,0.2
    Ukraine_Western,0.2

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  7. #14
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    R1a > M198 > YP 1337

    Poland
    Av1 with penalization=0, looks like North Russian and west-central Ukrainian + East-Germanic mix, with some Alpine element (southern route...)

    "distance%=0.8792"

    RU_Tver,25.4
    Sachsen,20.6
    Ukraine_Volhyn,17
    Ukraine_Zhytomyr,13.6
    Oberland(western_Ost_Preussen),10.6
    PL_Masovia,6.8
    IT_Bolzano,6


    Av2 with penalization=0, looks mainly Slavic with minor Baltic influx - northern route.

    "distance%=0.6082"
    PL_Masovia,70.8
    Ukraine_Sumy,17
    Lithuanians,11.6
    Ukraine_Zhytomyr,0.6

    EDIt: Sorry I confused Av1 with Av2 before. Because Waldemar added firstly Av2 Those numbers...
    Last edited by lukaszM; 08-22-2018 at 12:26 PM.

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    There is also slight submerged Germanic element?
    Genetic continuity in the western Eurasian Steppe broken not due to Scythian dominance, but rather at the transition to the Chernyakhov culture (Ostrogoths)?

    https://programm.conventus.de/index....bb50cd9cfe44c5

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  11. #16
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    They should investigate strontium isotopes...

    Av1 (may have been born in the first half of the 6th century AD)
    Pl_Upper_Silesia,26.8
    Ukraine_Kiev_region,23.6
    Greater_Poland_Wielkopolska,14.2
    PL_North,11.8

    ...

    Av2 (may have been born in the first half of the 6th century AD)
    PL_Masovia,68.4
    Ukraine_Sumy,16.4
    ...


    Slavs (Sclaveni and Anti) during the first half of the 6th century – evidence from archaeological and written evidence; from M. Parczewski (2005, Fig. 1), redrawn by I. Jordan. a – Prague culture; b – Penkovka culture; c – Kolochin culture; d – Bant
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-22-2018 at 02:23 PM.

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  13. #17
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    R1a > M198 > YP 1337

    Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    They should investigate strontium isotopes...

    Av1 (may have been born in the first half of the 6th century AD)
    Pl_Upper_Silesia,26.8
    Ukraine_Kiev_region,23.6
    Greater_Poland_Wielkopolska,14.2
    PL_North,11.8

    ...

    Av2 (may have been born in the first half of the 6th century AD)
    PL_Masovia,68.4
    Ukraine_Sumy,16.4
    ...


    Slavs (Sclaveni and Anti) during the first half of the 6th century – evidence from archaeological and written evidence; from M. Parczewski (2005, Fig. 1), redrawn by I. Jordan. a – Prague culture; b – Penkovka culture; c – Kolochin culture; d – Bant
    It is possible that partly "western Polish genetic makeup" of Av1 could be developed by mixing with rest-Germanen in for example Pannonia by Slavs similar to Av2.

  14. #18
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    Perhaps some Slavic male warriors ("besulci") have been buried also according to the custom of the Avars before 620s AD?

    Year 623
    "The Slavs had at that point already risen up against the Avars that were known as Huns and their King Khagan. Already in the olden days were the Wends used by the Huns as the so-called befulci [besulci?] so that when the Huns took the field against a nation, they themselves would stand in muster in front of their camp but the Wends would fight. If the Wends won, the Huns would come forth to claim the booty; but if the Wends lost, they would regroup/gather new forces with the Huns’ help/protection. They were called besulci by the Huns because they walked before the Huns and had to endure a double battle in any combat."
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-22-2018 at 07:53 PM.

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  16. #19
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    R1a > M198 > YP 1337

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Perhaps some Slavic male warriors ("besulci") have been buried also according to the custom of the Avars before 620s AD?

    Year 623
    "The Slavs had at that point already risen up against the Avars that were known as Huns and their King Khagan. Already in the olden days were the Wends used by the Huns as the so-called befulci [besulci?] so that when the Huns took the field against a nation, they themselves would stand in muster in front of their camp but the Wends would fight. If the Wends won, the Huns would come forth to claim the booty; but if the Wends lost, they would regroup/gather new forces with the Huns’ help/protection. They were called besulci by the Huns because they walked before the Huns and had to endure a double battle in any combat."
    Besulci? Rather Avarish "cannon fodder"

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukaszM View Post
    Besulci?
    Maybe those Slavic "besulci" were allowed to travel with their families? AFAIR, Eduardo wrote that Av1 and Av2 were mother and daughter (please note the same mtDNA haplogroup). How unusual would be to adopt a child by the nomadic warrior?

    BTW, Wikipedia: "According to mid-20th Century physical anthropologists such as Pál Lipták, human remains from the early Avar (7th century) period had mostly "Europoid" features, while grave goods indicated cultural links to the Eurasian steppe."

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