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Thread: 6th c. Slavic women (Av1, Av2) buried according to the custom of the Avars

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Maybe those Slavic "besulci" were allowed to travel with their families? AFAIR, Eduardo wrote that Av1 and Av2 were mother and daughter (please note the same mtDNA haplogroup). How unusual would be to adopt a child by the nomadic warrior?
    We can find the father of Av2 easily:


    screenshot_421.png






    He looks like a Slavic nomad and definitely doesn’t have Asian admixture.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Maybe those Slavic "besulci" were allowed to travel with their families? (...)
    For example:
    "Five hundred and twenty-three early Avar age graves from the sixth-seventh centuries were excavated at the Szegvár-Oromdűlő burial site under the direction of Gábor Lőrinczy (...) The Szegvár-Oromdülő population is veiy interesting from anthropological point of view as well. Demographic characteristics of this group is featured by a great number of children and adolescents (juveniles), altogether sixty percent of the population. Regarding the sex distribution, the adults are characterised by a predominance of females (57%) (...) On the basis of the metric and morphologic pictures of destorted skulls, it can be established that the anthropological (taxonomic) types of the community are of Europid (60%), Europo-Mongolid (20%), and the less percent are of Mongolids (20%)."

    https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/vi...g=197&layout=s

    mtDNA


    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep...ry-information
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-23-2018 at 08:46 AM.

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  4. #23
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    .....
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-23-2018 at 11:51 AM.

  5. #24
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    Ireland Scotland Germany Canada Netherlands Northern Ireland
    It seems you guys are making some headway with Slavic DNA! That is great! I am interested as my wife's Great Grandmother was a Barbara Tutko born circa Feb 1891 in then Czechoslovakia - so I'd say her mtDNA is probably going to be something common from there? I have yet to have her mtDNA tested - but had her autosomal tested... her Great Grandfather was a Michael Chervenick born 1888 in Czechoslovakia. They were her mother's mother's parents. They settled in Western Pennsylvania here in the States. My wife's father's side also probably has Slovenian that goes with his Austrian on his father's side - his mother's side is Italian. Keep in mind her mother's father's side is mostly (almost 100%) Scots-Irish from Western PA and West Virginia - some of the first frontiersmen in that area! It will be interesting to see how our kids turn out! She has more of an widespread mixture than I do - for a typical American from the North East!

    Her Euro k13:

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 33.53
    2 Baltic 26.26
    3 West_Med 15.16
    4 East_Med 14.98
    5 West_Asian 6.39
    6 Red_Sea 1.18
    7 East_Asian 1.12

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Serbian 6.5
    2 Hungarian 6.96
    3 Austrian 7.53
    4 East_German 9.76
    5 Romanian 9.77
    6 West_German 10.68
    7 Moldavian 11.48
    8 Croatian 11.51
    9 South_Dutch 12.24
    10 Bulgarian 12.54

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 79.7% Austrian + 20.3% Ashkenazi @ 2.6
    2 78.3% East_German + 21.7% Italian_Jewish @ 2.66
    3 74.4% Serbian + 25.6% Southeast_English @ 2.72
    4 82.9% Austrian + 17.1% Italian_Jewish @ 2.79
    5 74.8% East_German + 25.2% Ashkenazi @ 2.82
    6 72% Hungarian + 28% North_Italian @ 2.86

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Serbian @ 7.425386
    2 Hungarian @ 7.891493
    3 Austrian @ 8.687788
    4 Romanian @ 11.241961
    5 East_German @ 11.253670
    6 West_German @ 12.297922
    7 Moldavian @ 13.121299
    8 Croatian @ 13.128883
    9 South_Dutch @ 14.129671
    10 French @ 14.367999

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% North_Swedish @ 3.708100


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% East_German +25% Italian_Jewish +25% North_Swedish @ 2.812366


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Austrian + Belorussian + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.222602
    2 East_German + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English + Ukrainian @ 2.265830
    3 Austrian + Estonian_Polish + Italian_Jewish + Southeast_English @ 2.285869
    4 East_German + Italian_Jewish + South_Polish + Southeast_English @ 2.309217
    5 Ashkenazi + Austrian + South_Polish + Southeast_English @ 2.364186

    and her Euro k15:

    Population
    North_Sea 20.39
    Atlantic 21.39
    Baltic 17.34
    Eastern_Euro 10.05
    West_Med 11.06
    West_Asian 5.72
    East_Med 11.77
    Red_Sea 1.11

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Austrian 5.5
    2 Serbian 5.6
    3 Hungarian 7.22
    4 Romanian 8.3
    5 Croatian 8.9
    6 East_German 9.74
    7 Moldavian 10.04
    8 Bulgarian 10.66
    9 South_Dutch 12.82
    10 French 13.16

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 78.2% Austrian + 21.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.85
    2 86.4% Austrian + 13.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3
    3 78.9% Austrian + 21.1% Tuscan @ 3.02
    4 84.9% Austrian + 15.1% South_Italian @ 3.03
    5 87% Austrian + 13% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.05

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Austrian @ 6.405976
    2 Serbian @ 6.477281
    3 Hungarian @ 8.421302
    4 Romanian @ 9.685959
    5 Croatian @ 10.370472
    6 East_German @ 11.494416
    7 Moldavian @ 11.707444
    8 Bulgarian @ 12.455979
    9 South_Dutch @ 14.983495
    10 French @ 15.194780

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Polish +50% Tuscan @ 4.290732


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Austrian +25% Hungarian +25% Tuscan @ 2.933476


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Danish + Greek + Lithuanian + North_Italian @ 2.180352
    2 Greek + Irish + Lithuanian + North_Italian @ 2.216323
    3 Greek + Lithuanian + North_German + North_Italian @ 2.245952
    4 Greek + Irish + Lithuanian + Tuscan @ 2.308006
    5 Greek + Lithuanian + North_Italian + West_Scottish @ 2.309857

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 08-23-2018 at 09:15 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  7. #25
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    Maternal genetic origin of the Avar period (7th century) nomadic elite in the Carpathian Basin, Anna Szécsényi-Nagy - ISBA 2018 (19/09)

    https://programm.conventus.de/index....30eebbd9593a3a
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-23-2018 at 10:04 AM.

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  9. #26
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    Actually I didn't notice this earlier!! Eduardo wrote "The two Avars are parent/child (one female other male) and they come from Szolad, in Hungary."

    Slavic (?) child Av1 (son of Av2!) is R-L51 (R1b1a2a1) according to BAK analysis!

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YT...yZ5cxW_GVsXyYH
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=13o...sgBX2ZNRLf-wmg

    Supplementary table wrongly lists both samples as females!
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-23-2018 at 11:49 AM.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    We can find the father of Av2 easily
    Av2 was a mother of Av1, so it seems that father looked more like SZ5! I wasn't expecting that.
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-23-2018 at 11:54 AM.

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    Av2 was a mother of Av1, so it seems that father looked more like SZ5! I wasn't expecting that.
    So it looks like Slavic-Avar woman Av2 was married to/raped by some more western man, not Avars from the steppe. Who was SZ5?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolek View Post
    So it looks like Slavic-Avar women Av2 was married to/raped by some more western men, not Avars from the steppe. Who was SZ5?
    "Conversely, the three individuals who were dietary outliers at Szólád (graves SZ5, SZ23 and SZ44) were probably local, according to their strontium isotope values."

    SZ5 was also R-L51 (R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b, last downstream SNP CTS1595).

    Autosomally most similar to modern-day Austrians (or perhaps Hungarians)?

    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-23-2018 at 12:45 PM.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    For example:
    "Five hundred and twenty-three early Avar age graves from the sixth-seventh centuries were excavated at the Szegvár-Oromdűlő burial site under the direction of Gábor Lőrinczy (...) The Szegvár-Oromdülő population is veiy interesting from anthropological point of view as well. Demographic characteristics of this group is featured by a great number of children and adolescents (juveniles), altogether sixty percent of the population. Regarding the sex distribution, the adults are characterised by a predominance of females (57%) (...) On the basis of the metric and morphologic pictures of destorted skulls, it can be established that the anthropological (taxonomic) types of the community are of Europid (60%), Europo-Mongolid (20%), and the less percent are of Mongolids (20%)."

    https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/vi...g=197&layout=s

    mtDNA


    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep...ry-information
    And 40% Mongoloid

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