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Thread: Confusion over Z287/Z288 SNPs results

  1. #1
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    Confusion over Z287/Z288 SNPs results

    Good morning,

    I've been following this forum for some time, but this is my first official post here, my pleasure!

    To make a long story short, one month ago I had my first DNA testing performed - 23andme allocated me under Z287/Z288 subclade based on the postive results for Z288 (S345). As I browsed the raw data I found that Z287 (S223) was negative.
    All in all, as a MD and scientist myself, I decided to exclude the possibility of laboratory mistake and ordered second test, this time specifically focused on Y-DNA. I chose YSEQ R1a superclade panel - they meticulously, step by step, excluded all subclades except for Y2395 which was the last one and came out positive. Yesterday I received positive result for Z288, now they are going to check for more downstream subclades.

    I've read about Z287/Z888 subclade and its SNPs. Theese two main SNPs (Z287=S223 and Z288=S345) are sometimes called "parallel" SNPs, however, I cannot find anywhere what actually "being parallel" in the context of SNPs mean? Could you comment on that?

    Kind regards,
    JD

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  3. #2
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    A little update on my results - I'm negative for downstream subclades of Z287/Z288 (CTS8401,CTS8277, YP401). I slowly come to terms with the thought that I may belong to some new, previously unknown, subclade...Y2395>Z284>Z288*(Z287-)

    Kind regards,
    JD

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    Quote Originally Posted by jardul View Post
    I've read about Z287/Z888 subclade and its SNPs. Theese two main SNPs (Z287=S223 and Z288=S345) are sometimes called "parallel" SNPs, however, I cannot find anywhere what actually "being parallel" in the context of SNPs mean? Could you comment on that?
    Z287 and Z288 have never been considered "parallel" (ie. mutually exclusive or disjoint). Instead, they have been considered phylogenetically equivalent, which means that all tested people were either positive or negative for both of them, so there was no way to establish the order in which these two mutations arose. You are the first known case of a man who is positive only for one of them, while being negative for the other. Thanks to this result, we can conclude that Z288 is older than Z287 (or upstream of Z287), so the order of relevant SNPs is Y2395>Z284>Z288>Z287. This also means that you belong to a previously unknown and very early diverged subclade under Z288. Of course, it would be extremely interesting to learn whether there are any other members of this rare subclade. Testing for at least 37 Y-STR markers at FTDNA may help you find some potential matches among the STR-tested customers who have not been tested for any relevant SNPs yet, although ordering the much more expensive Big Y500 test seems to be the best option.

    Can you tell us something about your most distant paternal ancestor?

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  6. #4
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    Michal,

    Thank you for the very informative post!

    I traced back my paternal line to my 7th grandfather who came to Radzyń Chełmiński (german: Rehden) from unknown place in the first half of the XVIII century. I got stuck at this point in my genealogical research and hoped that genetic testing could help me make some progress. Having learnt that I'm an "unknown" clade I want to shout - what a pity!

    As I said before, I ordered R1a superclade at YSEQ and once they discovered that I'm Y2395 positive they proceeded to Z284 clade testing. They found that I'm Z288 positive and are still looking for more downstream clusters (they already excluded YP401, YP6446, CTS8277 and CTS8401, now Y29963 (YP5155) is being processed). I asked Thomas Krahn about my previous (23andme) Z287 (-) Z288 (+) results, however, the question remains unanswered.

    In the meanwhile I talked with Svein (co-administrator R1a Project, Z284 branch) and ordered Big Y500, however, the order (at least according to DHL tracking) has been stuck in US for almost 2 weeks!

    Despite the raw data results of being Z287 (-) Z288 (+) 23andme still placed me under R1a-Z287 clade, where is the logic here? Do you think there is a chance of some laboratory mistake?

    Another interesting information from 23andme is that, according to their autosomal DNA calculators, one of my ancestors around 1700 was 100% scandinavian. I've read that the admixture calculators are not reliable, but I keep thinking about this finding. Coincidence?
    Last edited by jardul; 09-10-2018 at 02:47 PM.

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jardul View Post
    As I said before, I ordered R1a superclade at YSEQ and once they discovered that I'm Y2395 positive they proceeded to Z284 clade testing. They found that I'm Z288 positive and are still looking for more downstream clusters (they already excluded YP401, YP6446, CTS8277 and CTS8401, now Y29963 (YP5155) is being processed). I asked Thomas Krahn about my previous (23andme) Z287 (-) Z288 (+) results, however, the question remains unanswered.
    It is worth noting that your negative results for all those SNPs downstream of Z287 are consistent with your Z288+ Z287- result and thus make your Z288(xZ287) status more likely.


    Quote Originally Posted by jardul View Post
    Despite the raw data results of being Z287 (-) Z288 (+) 23andme still placed me under R1a-Z287 clade, where is the logic here? Do you think there is a chance of some laboratory mistake?
    Such a mistake cannot be ruled out, so let's wait for your Big Y500 results.


    Quote Originally Posted by jardul View Post
    Another interesting information from 23andme is that, according to their autosomal DNA calculators, one of my ancestors around 1700 was 100% scandinavian. I've read that the admixture calculators are not reliable, but I keep thinking about this finding. Coincidence?
    Hard to say. Finding similar Z288+ Z287- cases (especially those sharing the same rare subclade under Z288) in Scandinavia will certainly make your above autosomal result much more meaningful in this respect, but we cannot rule out that this specific subclade is associated mostly with Central-Eastern European ancestry.

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  10. #6
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    Finally, my Big-700 results are showing up - my confirmed haplogroup is R-Z288 and I'm not alone:

    Z288.jpg

    Interestingly enough, Viking settlements were found in the area where my ancestors lived - Kałdus (near Chełmno).
    Last edited by jardul; 03-03-2019 at 05:51 PM.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jardul View Post
    Finally, my Big-700 results are showing up - my confirmed haplogroup is R-Z288 and I'm not alone:

    Attachment 29130


    Interestingly enough, Viking settlements were found in the area where my ancestors lived - Kałdus (near Chełmno).
    Historically, are any of the Polish towns or Cities on coast or down the Vistula, founded by the Vikings?
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    Historically, this is a very controversial topic - have you heard about Normanist Theory?

    As for the science, Chełmno Land is located on the right bank of the Vistula river and traces of Viking presence were found here (for example in Napole, Bodzia, Kałdus)
    Last edited by jardul; 03-03-2019 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jardul View Post
    This is a very controversial topic, to make a long story short - have you heard about Normanist Theory?

    As for the science, Chełmno Land is located on the right bank of the Vistula river and traces of Viking presence were found here (for example in Napole, Bodzia, Kałdus)
    No I never have heard of it, but will do some research, I have an interest in Poland as my wife is from the Plock area, and my son was also born there, my wife consistently gets some Scandinavian on here DNA tests.
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