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Thread: R1a and Corded Ware

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    R1a and Corded Ware

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Its present distribution is reminiscent of the Battle Axe Cultures, is it not? Linguistically that would partly fit with waves of IE spreading up river from the Middle Dnieper into Fatyanovo (3200 BC-2300 BC) and then up to the Baltic, gradually spreading the Baltic family, but thinly.
    It will depend on your definition of the Battle-Axe cultures. If you see it as just one of the alternative names for the entire Corded Ware culture (or CW horizon), I would partially agree with that. I say “partially” just in case one would suspect that I suggest that Z280 was associated with all subgroupings of CW, which I find rather unlikely.

    However, many people use the “Battle-Axe” term to distinguish the specific Scandinavian variety of CW, so in such case I would rather exclude Z280 from such group of potential BA founders.

    Let’s assume that R1a (mostly R1a-M417, and especially R1a-Z283) was strongly associated with the birth and expansion of the Corded Ware culture (although we still lack a definite proof for this assumption). Here is a good map that I have found in the internet (although I don’t know its original source):

    Corded Ware map.jpg

    Under the assumption that there was a strong relationship between CW and R1a, I would expect that some specific (local) varieties of the CW horizon were associated with different early branches of R1a. For example, the only branch of R1a that could have represented the Scandinavian (Battle-Axe) variety of CW was definitely Z284. Also, it seems likely that the distinctive North-Western variety of CW, frequently named “Single-Grave”, has likely been associated with the CTS4385 subclade of R1a-M417 that could have included not only the ancestors of the L664 lineage, but also the distinctive STR haplotype found in Eulau that resembles the haplotypes of the contemporary Leavitt/Stead lineage (found in Britain but suspected of Norman origin).

    The “typical” (or “classical”) form of CW, as shown on the above map, was seen on a large territory stretching from SW Germany through Bohemia, Poland, part of Ukraine, part of Belarus and the Baltic countries. I would suspect that these were mostly some very rare European Z283*/Z282* lineages (clusters 3.A, 3.B1 and 3.B2 in our project) and the Z280 clade, including its rare Western European non-Z92 and non-CTS1211 subclusters 5.A and 5.B (including subclusters 5.B1, 5.B2 and 5.B3 that are probably only very distantly related to each other). The ancestors of the two major subclades of Z280 (CTS1211 and Z92) could have lived in a region encompassing the Eastern part of Poland, Northern Belarus and the Baltic countries, and I would suspect that the initial expansion of those two subclades was associated with the subsequent expansion of the so-called Trzciniec horizon that included the Trzciniec, East Trzciniec, Komarovo and Sosnica cultures (all considered to be CW-derived).

    The major problem I have with assigning particular early branches of R1a to some exact locations in Europe is related to the M458 and Z93 branches. It seems likely that both of them were initially associated with Eastern Europe, but it is very difficult to provide just one scenario that could be considered most likely.

    In the case of M458, I would agree with your suggestion that this clade was born (or at least has initially settled) somewhere in (Southern?) Belarus. i would also assume that they survived the entire Bronze Age (and most of the Iron Age) by staying at this single location (thus taking no part in any significant cultural expansions and population movements in Central Europe that preceded the Slavic expansion in the first millennium AD). However, the presence of some very unusual M458 haplotypes (reported by Underhill) in the Caucasian region and the recent finding of our admin team that most of the Sardinian members of M458 do not seem to belong to any of the two major subclades of M458 (i.e. L260 or CTS11962), makes the whole situation very enigmatic.

    Finally, the question of Z93 in this context is also very complex. Assuming that CW was associated not only with the large branch Z283/Z282 but also with their more distantly related cousins from the CTS4385 branch, it seems natural to assume some participation of Z93 in the Eastern European varieties of CW, like Fatyanovo-Balanovo. This would have led to their subsequent involvement in the Abashevo culture and then to their significant (or dominant) contribution to Andronovo. However, as I have already written in another thread, this scenario would almost completely disconnect Z93 from the Late Yamna culture (including Poltavka that very strongly contributed to Andronovo). Therefore, we need to consider an alternative scenario in which Z93 was rather represented by a significant (Eastern) part of the large (and quite diversified) Yamna horizon (marked as "Ocher Grave" on the above map), while Fatyanovo-Balanovo were rather associated with some nearly extinct subclades of Z283/2 or with some Eastern subclades of Z280.

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    And how does the ancient L664 fit in with Corded Ware? There is enough divergence within L664 to maybe have a multiple origin from what is now Russia and etc. My group B in Scandinavia may have arrived into NW Europe via a different route than other subgroups within L664.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    However, many people use the “Battle-Axe” term to distinguish the specific Scandinavian variety of CW, so in such case I would rather exclude Z280 from such group of potential BA founders.
    Sorry I was unclear. I think we had this mix-up before. Must cure myself of this. I was using "Battle-Axe" to mean the eastern range of cultures that are linked to CW i.e. around the Baltic - the ones marked Corded Ware on your map. In short I agree with you.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-28-2013 at 11:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    In the case of M458, I would agree with your suggestion that this clade was born (or at least has initially settled) somewhere in (Southern?) Belarus. i would also assume that they survived the entire Bronze Age (and most of the Iron Age) by staying at this single location (thus taking no part in any significant cultural expansions and population movements in Central Europe that preceded the Slavic expansion in the first millennium AD). However, the presence of some very unusual M458 haplotypes (reported by Underhill) in the Caucasian region and the recent finding of our admin team that most of the Sardinian members of M458 do not seem to belong to any of the two major subclades of M458 (i.e. L260 or CTS11962), makes the whole situation very enigmatic.
    The outliers are interesting. It looks like another example of the oddities that crop up when we zoom into the detail of the picture. Just one or two wanderers from the family home who end up far away can cause this kind of surprise. It does not need a major migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    And how does the ancient L664 fit in with Corded Ware?
    There is no strong evidence for CTS4385 (a branch ancestral to L664) being associated with CW, but there are at least two major reasons to put forward this hypothesis:
    1) The only evidence for the presence of R1a in CW comes from Eulau (Germany) and the STR haplotype found in that CW site does not resemble any known subclade of R1a except the rare CTS4385* lineage mentioned in my post.
    2) The distribution of L664 in all countries around the North Sea is consistent with the hypothesis that they are remnants of the North-Western subpopulation of CW (Single-Grave) who have managed to survived the arrival of Bell-Beakers while moderately expanding in the more recent times, as suggested in my previous posts on this forum:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...=8225#post8225
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...=8275#post8275

    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    There is enough divergence within L664 to maybe have a multiple origin from what is now Russia and etc.
    When taking into account both the frequency and distribution of L664 in Europe, it seems highly unlikely that this branch arrived to NW Europe as a result of two independent and relatively recent (i.e. post-CW) migrations from Russia, and I don’t know any data that would support such hypothesis. The divergence within L664 itself is not a sufficient indicator for the separate arrival of particular L664 subgroupings to NW Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    My group B in Scandinavia may have arrived into NW Europe via a different route than other subgroups within L664.
    Could you please explain what is the basis for this presumption?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    (The) STR haplotype found in that CW site does not resemble any known subclade of R1a except the rare CTS4385* lineage
    Can you absolutely rule out every other known subclade of R1a besides CTS4385? The haplotype to begin with is only 16 STR markers, and while the modal for R1a1 is far off at a match of only 10 of 15 markers, there are quite a few people from the surrounding countries who are quite close. 8EGCP from Poland is a 15 of 16 marker match, and then there are quite a few people from Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Britain who are within a genetic distance of 3 at 16 markers. If it wasn't for dys448=19, and dys 393=14 most R1a people would be very close (granted dys 388 wasn't tested). Don't you think with more markers tested there would be a greater convergence with the other R1a subclades? Especially something ancestral to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by T1 1 View Post
    Can you absolutely rule out every other known subclade of R1a besides CTS4385? The haplotype to begin with is only 16 STR markers, and while the modal for R1a1 is far off at a match of only 10 of 15 markers, there are quite a few people from the surrounding countries who are quite close. 8EGCP from Poland is a 15 of 16 marker match, and then there are quite a few people from Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Britain who are within a genetic distance of 3 at 16 markers. If it wasn't for dys448=19, and dys 393=14 most R1a people would be very close (granted dys 388 wasn't tested). Don't you think with more markers tested there would be a greater convergence with the other R1a subclades? Especially something ancestral to them?
    That rare xL664 line is DYS388=12 which appears to be ancestral.

    Edit: Other lines cannot be ruled out without further testing Eulau, but I recall observing that that the off norm trend for both the Eulau sample and CTS4385xL664(DYS388=12) was similar, ie, both skewed in the same direction off the norm.
    Last edited by parasar; 10-30-2013 at 03:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    There is no strong evidence for CTS4385 (a branch ancestral to L664) being associated with CW, but there are at least two major reasons to put forward this hypothesis:
    1) The only evidence for the presence of R1a in CW comes from Eulau (Germany) and the STR haplotype found in that CW site does not resemble any known subclade of R1a except the rare CTS4385* lineage mentioned in my post.
    2) The distribution of L664 in all countries around the North Sea is consistent with the hypothesis that they are remnants of the North-Western subpopulation of CW (Single-Grave) who have managed to survived the arrival of Bell-Beakers while moderately expanding in the more recent times, as suggested in my previous posts on this forum:
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...=8225#post8225
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...=8275#post8275


    When taking into account both the frequency and distribution of L664 in Europe, it seems highly unlikely that this branch arrived to NW Europe as a result of two independent and relatively recent (i.e. post-CW) migrations from Russia, and I don’t know any data that would support such hypothesis. The divergence within L664 itself is not a sufficient indicator for the separate arrival of particular L664 subgroupings to NW Europe.


    Could you please explain what is the basis for this presumption?
    No, I can't explain much. I'm not a scientist. But L664 is sehr alt (very old). It may have split up into different tribes back in the Ukraine & area, before wandering off in different directions. One tribe may have gone north up the Volga or Don, and around into Finland. Any remnants in Russia may have been exterminated by later by waves of invaders.

    My subgroup has an outlier in Finland, which either arrived there from Sweden, or directly from the east in distant times past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Can you absolutely rule out every other known subclade of R1a besides CTS4385?
    No, I definitely agree with you and Parasar that we cannot rule it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    8EGCP from Poland is a 15 of 16 marker match
    8EGCP shows Germany as a place of his origin (not Poland). Do you know at which company he was tested (so we could confirm his results)? What is his exact ancestral location and to which particular subclade of R1a he belongs? Can you exclude the possibility the he is CTS4385*?


    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    and then there are quite a few people from Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Britain who are within a genetic distance of 3 at 16 markers.
    At least some of those British close matches you mention above represent the same Leavitt/Stead lineage as kit 259861 from our project. For example, 6ZUSE (who shows only 2 mismatches when compared to Eulau) is from the Leavitt family, so we can safely assume that he is CTS4385*.


    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    If it wasn't for dys448=19, and dys 393=14 most R1a people would be very close
    I think these two rare STR values are slightly more important than the remaining STR results found in the Eulau haplotype, and this is exactly because these two values are much more unusual than any of the remaining STR values that do not fit the modal. I would say that a similar genetic distance from the Eulau haplotype that is reported for most of the above-mentioned contemporary R1a haplotypes is much less meaningful (IMO), as it is based in a larger extent on sharing the modal values than on sharing those rare innovations. In other words, when comparing the patterns composed of several STR results, I always pay more attention to some rare shared innovations than to some shared retentions. Would you agree with me that this makes some sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by T101 View Post
    Don't you think with more markers tested there would be a greater convergence with the other R1a subclades? Especially something ancestral to them?
    It is of course possible, but we need to rely on those results that are currently available to us. We can only hope that one day some crucial SNP tests will be performed on those Eulau remains and the whole mystery will be finally solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    No, I can't explain much. I'm not a scientist. But L664 is sehr alt (very old). It may have split up into different tribes back in the Ukraine & area, before wandering off in different directions. One tribe may have gone north up the Volga or Don, and around into Finland. Any remnants in Russia may have been exterminated by later by waves of invaders.

    My subgroup has an outlier in Finland, which either arrived there from Sweden, or directly from the east in distant times past.
    I think it is much more likely that this single Finnish member of your cluster 2.B3 (a cluster that is seen in Norway, Scotland and Ireland), descends from some Scandinavian (Swedish or Norwegian) early members of 2.B3 than that his ancestors have stopped in Finland while migrating from Northern Russia to NW Europe. If the L664 members have indeed migrated from Russia to NW Europe in two independent migration waves (separated by more than 2000 years, since your 2.B3 cluster is probably only 2000-2500 years old), this would be an extreme coincidence that not only all of them have come to the same region of Europe but also that no very early separated or 2.B3-related sub-branches of L664 were left in Eastern Europe (not to mention that the only non-L664 lineage from the ancestral branch CTS4385 was found in NW Europe and not in Russia).

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