Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 38

Thread: R1a and Corded Ware

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post

    Finally, the question of Z93 in this context is also very complex. Assuming that CW was associated not only with the large branch Z283/Z282 but also with their more distantly related cousins from the CTS4385 branch, it seems natural to assume some participation of Z93 in the Eastern European varieties of CW, like Fatyanovo-Balanovo. This would have led to their subsequent involvement in the Abashevo culture and then to their significant (or dominant) contribution to Andronovo. However, as I have already written in another thread, this scenario would almost completely disconnect Z93 from the Late Yamna culture (including Poltavka that very strongly contributed to Andronovo). Therefore, we need to consider an alternative scenario in which Z93 was rather represented by a significant (Eastern) part of the large (and quite diversified) Yamna horizon (marked as "Ocher Grave" on the above map), while Fatyanovo-Balanovo were rather associated with some nearly extinct subclades of Z283/2 or with some Eastern subclades of Z280.
    Would you agree with this?

    Abashevo: R1a-Z283+/Z282* and maybe R1a-Z280*
    Poltavka:Z93*
    Andronovo:Z93+, Z94+
    Indo-Aryan and Dardic-Nuristani speakers: L657+ and Z21224+
    Central Asian Iranian speakers: Z2124+, Z2123+
    West Asian Iranian speakers: Z2122+, Z2123+
    Timber-Grave culture and European steppe Scythians: Z93*, Z94*
    Tagar culture and Forest steppe Scythians: Z280* and Z93+

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,682
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1280>FGC41205
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a2(b)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029>YP517
    mtDNA (P)
    H5a2

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Would you agree with this?

    Abashevo: R1a-Z283+/Z282* and maybe R1a-Z280*
    Poltavka:Z93*
    Andronovo:Z93+, Z94+
    Indo-Aryan and Dardic-Nuristani speakers: L657+ and Z21224+
    Central Asian Iranian speakers: Z2124+, Z2123+
    West Asian Iranian speakers: Z2122+, Z2123+
    Timber-Grave culture and European steppe Scythians: Z93*, Z94*
    Tagar culture and Forest steppe Scythians: Z280* and Z93+
    Yes, most of the above seems to be quite likely.

  3. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    86
    Sex

    United States of America Netherlands France United Kingdom Germany Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    8EGCP shows Germany as a place of his origin (not Poland). Do you know at which company he was tested (so we could confirm his results)? What is his exact ancestral location and to which particular subclade of R1a he belongs? Can you exclude the possibility
    the he is CTS4385*?
    It goes back about 5 years or so, but I think I remember that the confusion about the mysterious origin of 8EGCP lay in the fact that his ancestors were from Gdansk (Danzig,) yet his ancestors were of German descent and left during the Weimar Republic. Or (the other rumor,) It could be that his haplotype was a hypothetical composite done by Slovak researchers for a "Neolithic R1a person." So... lol... its probably lost forever along with everything else at Dna-Forums.

    However, maybe David knows tho. I'll try and catch him over at Eurogenes or Molgen about any information because it would be great to know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    I would say that a similar genetic distance from the Eulau haplotype that is reported for most of the above-mentioned contemporary R1a haplotypes is much less meaningful (IMO), as it is based in a larger extent on sharing the modal values than on sharing those rare innovations. In other words, when comparing the patterns composed of several STR results, I always pay more attention to some rare shared innovations than to some shared retentions.
    Completely agree!

  4. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,335
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union
    We now have 15 samples of R1a from Corded Ware, closely related cultures and influenced cultures:

    In chronological order (roughly):

    RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
    RISE436 - Tiefbrunn - 2868-2580 BC
    RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld - 2829-2465 BC
    EUL9(99-3) - Eulau - 2600 BC
    EUL11(99-2) - Eulau - 2600 BC
    EUL12(99-4) - Eulau - 2600 BC
    RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
    A8 - Naumovo, Russia - 2500 BC
    A9 - Serteya II, Russia - 2500 BC
    RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
    ESP11 - Esperstedt - 2473-2348 BC
    RISE431 - Łęki Małe (Bruszczewo) - 2286-2048 BC
    RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
    Rogalin near Hrubieszów (2 samples) - 2000 BC

    Samples A8 and A9 (from Chekunova) were Zhizhitskaya culture, strongly influenced by CW / GAC:

    Zhizhitskaya culture from the mid-3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals.

    Dolukhanov et al., "The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture":

    http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2...hanov_etal.pdf

    Dolbunova et al., "Archaeology of lake settlement (North-West Russia)":

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed
    RISE431 from Łęki Małe (burial site) and Bruszczewo (where he lived), was already Unetice culture:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...o-Unetice-aDNA

    ===============================

    It has been confirmed that Scandinavian sample RISE61 (from Kyndeløse) was under R1a-Z284.

    Do we know anything about specific subclades to which other of those 15 samples belonged ???

    ===============================

    Here maps showing locations of samples:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...er-than-500-AD
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-27-2015 at 11:07 AM.

  5. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    767
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1b2a1b (A6105)
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1b3

    Canada Ukraine
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    We now have 15 samples of R1a from Corded Ware, closely related cultures and influenced cultures:

    In chronological order (roughly):

    RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
    RISE436 - Tiefbrunn - 2868-2580 BC
    RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld - 2829-2465 BC
    EUL9(99-3) - Eulau - 2600 BC
    EUL11(99-2) - Eulau - 2600 BC
    EUL12(99-4) - Eulau - 2600 BC
    RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
    A8 - Naumovo, Russia - 2500 BC
    A9 - Serteya II, Russia - 2500 BC
    RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
    ESP11 - Esperstedt - 2473-2348 BC
    RISE431 - Łęki Małe (Bruszczewo) - 2286-2048 BC
    RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
    Rogalin near Hrubieszów (2 samples) - 2000 BC

    Samples A8 and A9 (from Chekunova) were Zhizhitskaya culture, strongly influenced by CW / GAC:



    RISE431 from Łęki Małe (burial site) and Bruszczewo (where he lived), was already Unetice culture:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...o-Unetice-aDNA

    ===============================

    It has been confirmed that Scandinavian sample RISE61 (from Kyndeløse) was under R1a-Z284.

    Do we know anything about specific subclades to which other of those 15 samples belonged ???

    ===============================

    Here maps showing locations of samples:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...er-than-500-AD
    Where does the Serteya VIII R1a (4,000 BCE) fit in? It's clearly pre CW and pre-GAC but does its presence suggest anything?
    Last edited by George; 09-27-2015 at 12:11 PM.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to George For This Useful Post:

     Nasser (09-27-2015)

  7. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,335
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by George
    Where does the Serteya VIII R1a (4,000 BCE) fit in?
    It could be some pre-M198 subclade, such as that of Karelian hunter (R-M459*) or of Mr Szpakowski from Belarus (R-YP1272):

    2) The R1a-M459* sample has been found in Karelia, from EHG
    3) Shpakowski isn't R1a-M459*, but the subclade R1a-YP1272


    Szpakowski is a modern person, while Karelian hunter is that EHG sample UZOO74 from Red Deer Island (ca. 5500-5000 BC).

    Quote Originally Posted by George
    It's clearly pre CW and pre-GAC but does its presence suggest anything?
    It suggests that some "archaic" subclades of R1a expanded into Europe with Siberian / ANE hunters before Indo-Europeans.

    There are two samples of EHG - one from Karelia (with R1a1-M459*) and one from Samara Oblast (R1b1a-P297*):

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

    They did not belong to Indo-European subclades R1b-M269 and R1a-M198, but to more "archaic" subclades.

    =================================

    EHG autosomal DNA (they were mostly a mix of WHG and ANE):



    While in Corded Ware and Yamnaya, there was something more (Caucasus-Gedrosia?):

    http://s22.postimg.org/5509lhoj5/Cor...re_Yamnaya.png



    According to this map, Caucasus-Gedrosia peaks in area where Maykop culture existed:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture



    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...cestry-Project

    Map: http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6542/caucasus.jpg



    ======================

    Edit:

    So question is - were EHG really direct ancestors of PIE, or just their "cousins" ???:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post111198
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-27-2015 at 01:27 PM.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Gravetto-Danubian (11-13-2016),  parasar (09-27-2015)

  9. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    767
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1b2a1b (A6105)
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1b3

    Canada Ukraine
    Re Serteya VIII R1a: "It could be some pre-M198 subclade, such as that of Karelian hunter (R-M459*) or of Mr Szpakowski from Belarus (R-YP1272)"

    Is this actually confirmed or just a supposition? Acc. to Yfull M198 arose ca. 6,500 BCE... Unless the actual Serteya analysis suggests otherwise, the date 4,000 would be compatible with M198. And further consequences.

  10. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    767
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1b2a1b (A6105)
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1b3

    Canada Ukraine
    P.S. "Caucasus-Gedrosia peaks in area where Maykop culture existed"

    Not sure if this is relevant, but maybe. Just archaeological items. Maykop influence (or mediated influence) spread a lot further West than just the area on your map BEFORE the IE invasion of Central Europe. Unfortunately most of these areas remain to be properly analysed at a genetic level. Lower Mykhajlivka spread to the area between Lower Dnipro and Dnister long before Maykop thrived. The steppe peoples also moved in that direction throughout the 4th millennium. Back and forth actually. Maykop stuff present practically to the Danube, as Trypilia practically to the Volga BEFORE 3,000 BCE... Usatovo a major presence. What Rassamakin calls "PostStog" (ca. 3500-3000) also combines both Maykop and Trypilia. Now Dnipro Donetsk mixed heavily with the nascent SrednyStog. And it was almost certainly a prime R1a carrier (this hg clearly advancing from N to S from the forested areas), as Repin might have been.== This is certainly one area where aDNA might surprise as much as Allentoft's paper did re R1b... Waiting patiently

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to George For This Useful Post:

     Megalophias (09-27-2015),  Tomenable (09-27-2015)

  12. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,335
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by George
    Is this actually confirmed or just a supposition?
    Jean M's website has it listed as R1a1 (which probably means that they didn't test it any further beyond M459):

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

    But Karelian hunter lived 5500 - 5000 BCE, which is also compatible with M198, yet he was actually not M198.

    So it seems that population of M198 carriers lived somewhere else. They could be living even far away from Karelia.

    Serteya VIII from 4000 BCE was probably just a regular Mesolithic EHG, like that Karelian UZOO74 from 5000 BCE.

    ===========================

    Edit:

    Reconstruction of Karelian HG by Gerasimov (I'm not sure if this is UZOO74 or another one from the same burial site):

    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-27-2015 at 04:18 PM.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     George (09-27-2015)

  14. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    767
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1b2a1b (A6105)
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1b3

    Canada Ukraine
    P.P.S. If the view of some archaeologists (viz., that DD had spread as far as the Vistula even before the Trypilian expansion initially began then we might actually have R1a there prior to the advent of the IE's. And hence the proper analysis of TRB and GAC again surfaces as a prime assignment.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to George For This Useful Post:

     Megalophias (09-27-2015)

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Corded Ware, check yourself G25. (not for fun)
    By AlexRus in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 108
    Last Post: 05-01-2019, 10:35 AM
  2. Corded Ware origin for P312?
    By R.Rocca in forum R1b General
    Replies: 1016
    Last Post: 08-04-2017, 06:31 AM
  3. Relationship between Yamnaya and Corded Ware
    By Jean M in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-14-2016, 10:54 PM
  4. R1b in Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 04-19-2016, 12:34 AM
  5. Geographical gap between Corded Ware and Yamnaya?
    By newtoboard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-25-2015, 12:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •