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Thread: R1b-M412* or R1b-L51* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecža Salentina (?)

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    R1b-M412* or R1b-L51* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecža Salentina (?)

    (R1b-M412 or R1b-L51* in Apulia, Italy) ) "The R1b-M412* (R1b-L51*) is observed in all the four Southern Italian samples, all from the ancient Magna Graecia area, but only sporadically in population groups from Northern Italy. The R1b-M412* Y chromosomes could, therefore, represent the legacy of an Eastern Mediterranean input associated with the early Hellenic colonisation, and/or the more recent Byzantine domination. This scenario is supported by the high frequency of R1b-M412* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecža Salentina (13.4%), where haplogroup R1b-M412* probably reflects ancient colonisation events from Greek-speaking islands rather than continental Greece. " https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2017.1409801

    POSSIBLE? R-1b-L51* is absent in Greece, so these Greeks of Salento (Apulia, Italy) or are not of Greek origin or the Greeks of 2000 years ago are not the same as today!

    What do you think?

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2017.1409801

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    This can prove two things: either they are not Greeks, or that today's Greeks have little to do with the Greeks of 2000 years ago. The Greek is spoken by 10 million people, Latin for more than 700 million. Here is all the difference.

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    It isn’t to do with Greeks. It’s to do with the fact that L51 is derived from L23, which is actually West Asian in origin, and went West across the mediterranean in search of metals (the other descendent of L23, Z2103, went North to colonise the Steppe, forming Yamnaya).

    Basically, yet more evidence that L51 isn’t Steppe in origin.

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    Then these R-L51 "greeks of puglia" in south italy
    either they are not Greeks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbotti View Post
    (R1b-M412 or R1b-L51* in Apulia, Italy) ) "The R1b-M412* (R1b-L51*) is observed in all the four Southern Italian samples, all from the ancient Magna Graecia area, but only sporadically in population groups from Northern Italy. The R1b-M412* Y chromosomes could, therefore, represent the legacy of an Eastern Mediterranean input associated with the early Hellenic colonisation, and/or the more recent Byzantine domination. This scenario is supported by the high frequency of R1b-M412* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecža Salentina (13.4%), where haplogroup R1b-M412* probably reflects ancient colonisation events from Greek-speaking islands rather than continental Greece. " https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2017.1409801

    POSSIBLE? R-1b-L51* is absent in Greece, so these Greeks of Salento (Apulia, Italy) or are not of Greek origin or the Greeks of 2000 years ago are not the same as today!

    What do you think?

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2017.1409801
    13.4% is not that high. That haplogroup could have existed in the region before the Greek colonization.
    Now the Greeks of 2000 years ago are certainly not the same as today. Even some groups who were considered isolated are not as isolated as some would like to think.

    I personally don't believe any R1b subclade was common among classical Greeks, though, but we will see.

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    Could be Anatolian Hellenes, Greek colonies were not necessarily only set up by mainland Greeks.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    R-L51* in Anatolia? is not it simpler and more probable that they are ancient italics?
    Last edited by Carbotti; 11-03-2018 at 08:45 PM.

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    It might indeed represent a remnant of pre-Greek South Italians, however, my assumption is then that it would be also more widely distributed in the rest of Italy. The fact it's quite rare in Northern Italy, might make two scenarios plausible:

    1. It was more common among pre-Greek Southern Italian population than North Italians to begin with.
    2. It has entered via Greek colonization, but not mainland Greece where it doesn't seem to exist.

    I find scenario 1 to be plausible, but less likely than scenario 2.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Example: ". Latino-Faliscians occupied the Tyrrhenian coast between the current Lazio and Calabria and overlapped and mingled with the oldest Neolithic peoples. They had cremation burials and possessed advanced metallurgical techniques. Major tribes included: Latins and Falisci in Lazio, Oenotrians (and Itali?) in Calabria, Ausones, Aurunci and Opici in Campania and perhaps Sicels in Sicily. " ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post

    I personally don't believe any R1b subclade was common among classical Greeks, though, but we will see.
    Even though it's already turned up in aDNA from the classical period? (which it has) I'd agree with you if you suggested the Neolithic period.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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