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Thread: R1b-M412* or R1b-L51* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecža Salentina (?)

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    my assumption is then that it would be also more widely distributed in the rest of Italy

    If instead you add M269* + L23* + L51* you get:

    11-13% in Calabria
    9-10% in Sicily
    6-13% in Apulia
    9% in Tuscany
    11% in Liguria

    How many M269* or L23* or L51* are there in Bell Beaker? Zero, right? Because those people in southern Italy are ancestral to Bell Beaker not derivative of them.

  2. #12
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    Another study of modern y-dna.

    Such studies, however, do take us back in time . . . but only to about 2007 or so, when yacking on and on about modern y-dna was nearly all there was to do.

    Interesting that modern people in southern Italy should be regarded as ancestral to Bell Beaker in the 3rd millennium BC. Marvelous!

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Another study of modern y-dna.

    Such studies, however, do take us back in time . . . but only to about 2007 or so, when yacking on and on about modern y-dna was nearly all there was to do.

    Interesting that modern people in southern Italy should be regarded as ancestral to Bell Beaker in the 3rd millennium BC. Marvelous!
    Yeah, like trying to argue that vinyl records sound better. It's 2018 people, get with the program!
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #14
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    Has it not already been shown that the MRCA of L51xL11 lines dates to about 3700BC? ? It’s not ancestral to L11, it’s parallel. Anyone got a MRCA for just the south Italian subset? It may be that they are not terribly old. The

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  8. #15
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    I think that is a huge underestimate of the number of scenarios which exist to explain how one minor branch of L51 got its distribution. There’s maybe 5700 years of movements between the common ancestor of living L51 and today. Little things like the Roman Empire with it’s ability to move peoples around need to be considered. Even pure chance of one stray guy moving. There is also a concentration in Tyrol. Who knows? The Romans could have overrun a small tribe with a mining tradition and enslaved them to work various mines across the empire.

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  10. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Yeah, like trying to argue that vinyl records sound better. It's 2018 people, get with the program!
    Are you aware of the fact that even though the original Allentoft study claimed their Remedello samples were from between 3483BC-1773BC that claim was false and has been corrected?
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/
    All the Remedello samples are actually from Remedello I 5.5Ė5.1 kya, we have 0 (Zero) samples from Remedello II. Researchers can sample another 10000 ancient steppe males and find no L51 or they can start looking in the right place.

  11. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Snow View Post
    Are you aware of the fact that even though the original Allentoft study claimed their Remedello samples were from between 3483BC-1773BC that claim was false and has been corrected?
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/
    All the Remedello samples are actually from Remedello I 5.5–5.1 kya, we have 0 (Zero) samples from Remedello II. Researchers can sample another 10000 ancient steppe males and find no L51 or they can start looking in the right place.
    There is no chance that beaker is derived from Remello II. And I don’t see now L51xL11 in Italy would lead to thay conclusion anyway. That branch and the P312 branch leading to beaker split long before remedello II existed. So
    It’s not ancestral to beaker P312.

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Snow View Post

    If instead you add M269* + L23* + L51* you get:

    11-13% in Calabria
    9-10% in Sicily
    6-13% in Apulia
    9% in Tuscany
    11% in Liguria

    How many M269* or L23* or L51* are there in Bell Beaker? Zero, right? Because those people in southern Italy are ancestral to Bell Beaker not derivative of them.
    Or you could be looking at the data the wrong way. The lineages you are adding up may have absolutely nothing to do with the lineages of R1b (L11) in northern Europe, but may have arrived with J2 or some other migration from Anatolia or the western Middle East. Since J2 and R1b-L23 correlate with one another, but L11+ correlates only with I2-M223 and I1.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  15. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Another study of modern y-dna.

    Such studies, however, do take us back in time . . . but only to about 2007 or so, when yacking on and on about modern y-dna was nearly all there was to do.

    Interesting that modern people in southern Italy should be regarded as ancestral to Bell Beaker in the 3rd millennium BC. Marvelous!
    I don't see what's so unreasonable about looking at the distribution of the more ancient subclades of a particular branch of Y DNA to track migrations. It just so happens that for L51*, this is firmly in the West Mediterranean (and not in Eastern Europe). To me, that points to a Western origin of the Central European Beaker folk.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-04-2018 at 03:56 AM.

  16. #20
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    I highly doubt R1b-M412 is due to Greek origin, that high percent is probably due to a founder effect, Salento is in Puglia and the frequency is 2% in Puglia, which kind of makes it closer to the rest of the averages, R1b-M412 probably entered Italy pre Bronze Age or was a minor Italic lineage.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

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