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Thread: R1b-M412* or R1b-L51* in the Griko-speaking community of Grecža Salentina (?)

  1. #71
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    As I’ve posted many times before, there is no mystery why L51 has proven hard to find prior to L11 in ancient DNA. The reason is manifest in the L51 tree. This clearly shows very limited growth down to L11 and indeed no other major branch ever formed. So the chances of stumbling across a sample of ancient DNA of a pre-L11 L51 guy is clearly v remote if this was a small line that was barely surviving. No mystery at all IMO. Much more likely IMO is finding an early L11/ early P312 guy in a pre-beaker culture some time in that period c. 3000-2600BC. I’ve though very hard about the cultural traits of Central European bell beaker and concluded P312 was a lineage that stayed behind in or adjacent to the steppes and able to absorb new steppe innovations long after the big R1a corded ware wave headed far to the west c 2800BC. Personally I think L11 travelled around the east then north side of the Carpathians before heading west c 2600BC following a similar route west that CW had used 200 years before. However, it is possible that other minor L51 lineages took the route intwest south of the Carpathians and reached Austria and through the Alpine passes into north Italy and from there into the rest of Italy and southern France. I actually would not be surprised if it was present in small numbers in Remedello 2 as parts of its distribution would fit that well and the influence of Remedello is seen in the French Alps and RhŰne area too suggestive of prospecting. However as I posted above it’s clear that would have to have been a cousinly relationship to the L11 story not an ancestral one because L11 line split from the L51xL11 ones nearly a millennium before Remedello 2.

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  3. #72
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    I never really bought into the stelae people idea in so far as it had anything to do with P312 or brought it to Iberia and re-expanded as beaker people from there. Each bit of DNA evidence that emerged flatly contradicted the model. However I have long wondered if Jean was partly right and whether then L51xL11 was a cousinly (relative to L11) much less successful vanguard of prospectors who took a different route west to north Italy and southern France a few centuries before the much bigger L11/P312 wave took a different more northerly route west. But rather like the Remedello 2 zone of influence, it was a much smaller affair and and was eclipsed by P312/beaker groups from further north a few centuries later. If that was the case then it would suggest that L51 already had an affinity with prospecting and metals by c. 2900/2800BC when Remedello 2 appeared. That would push back that role 2-300 years pre the P312 Beaker group. That would also not surprise me as I doubt the beaker type role of very mobile networking groups linked to metals and trades just appears from nowhere in 2600BC with the Beaker-P312 group. It seems likely that P312 as well as perhaps other L51 lineages has a similar lifestyle prior to the existence of the P312-beaker culture in 2600BC. This lifestyle might be something associated these lineages back to 3000BC and earlier when they were in other cultural guides like

  4. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There's a certain Italian guy who always argues that from anecdotes based on the results of modern men, mostly FTDNA customers who have sent their BAM files to YFull. I'll leave him unnamed, but you know who he is.

    A friend of yours from Ireland answered that to my Italian friend:
    ďMidpoint for this 10443 sample is 3,000 BC and not the ancestor of Z2103 nor L51. A dead line probably.

    Midpoint for 17043 sample is 2,350 and not the ancestor of either P312 nor U106. L11 was born 3,000 BC which means that the Hungarian sample was the result of a reflux from France and that sample only had 25% Steppe dna.

    L11 had to be living in France to give birth to P312. P312 was not born in Hungary nor the UkraineĒ.
    My Italian friend, who is an administrator of our FB page ďR1b-L51-PF7589Ē, didnít reply so far. He is waiting that D. Reich publishes his results from Italy from 6000 to 5000 years ago (and of course is waiting also for those from 12000 to 6000). For older times he says that he has Villabruna 14000 years ago and Les Iboussiťres 12000 (R1b as to Genetiker, R1* as to him), anyway linked to Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide of Liguria, Italy.

  5. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbotti View Post
    A friend of yours from Ireland answered that to my Italian friend:
    ďMidpoint for this 10443 sample is 3,000 BC and not the ancestor of Z2103 nor L51. A dead line probably.

    Midpoint for 17043 sample is 2,350 and not the ancestor of either P312 nor U106. L11 was born 3,000 BC which means that the Hungarian sample was the result of a reflux from France and that sample only had 25% Steppe dna.

    L11 had to be living in France to give birth to P312. P312 was not born in Hungary nor the UkraineĒ.
    My Italian friend, who is an administrator of our FB page ďR1b-L51-PF7589Ē, didnít reply so far. He is waiting that D. Reich publishes his results from Italy from 6000 to 5000 years ago (and of course is waiting also for those from 12000 to 6000). For older times he says that he has Villabruna 14000 years ago and Les Iboussiťres 12000 (R1b as to Genetiker, R1* as to him), anyway linked to Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide of Liguria, Italy.
    First of all, it's impossible to predict how was 6000 years ago from modern data. It's like surnames: one surname could have been born in a place, then in that place people bearing that surname changed it or simply went to extinction, but some managed to migrate in other place where multiplied.

    Then, I looked at the data of Genetiker about IboussiŤres and Villabruna: it seems they are a parallel line to that leading to V88, but, probably, not the line that goes to P297. Perhaps, we are in front of a third line that went to a dead end.

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  7. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    First of all, it's impossible to predict how was 6000 years ago from modern data. It's like surnames: one surname could have been born in a place, then in that place people bearing that surname changed it or simply went to extinction, but some managed to migrate in other place where multiplied.

    Then, I looked at the data of Genetiker about IboussiŤres and Villabruna: it seems they are a parallel line to that leading to V88, but, probably, not the line that goes to P297. Perhaps, we are in front of a third line that went to a dead end.
    There are R1b-M343 subclades that have yet to be discovered or exploited by NGS testing. For example, there is a guy from the west coast of India that is tested M343+, L278+ (PH155-, M335-, L754-, V88-, L389-). That sample will hopefully be NGS tested over the holidays. Should yield about 19,000 years worth of SNPs or varients.
    Last edited by Joe B; 11-07-2018 at 07:21 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  8. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbotti View Post
    A friend of yours from Ireland answered that to my Italian friend:
    “Midpoint for this 10443 sample is 3,000 BC and not the ancestor of Z2103 nor L51. A dead line probably.

    Midpoint for 17043 sample is 2,350 and not the ancestor of either P312 nor U106. L11 was born 3,000 BC which means that the Hungarian sample was the result of a reflux from France and that sample only had 25% Steppe dna.

    L11 had to be living in France to give birth to P312. P312 was not born in Hungary nor the Ukraine”.
    My Italian friend, who is an administrator of our FB page “R1b-L51-PF7589”, didn’t reply so far. He is waiting that D. Reich publishes his results from Italy from 6000 to 5000 years ago (and of course is waiting also for those from 12000 to 6000). For older times he says that he has Villabruna 14000 years ago and Les Iboussiťres 12000 (R1b as to Genetiker, R1* as to him), anyway linked to Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide of Liguria, Italy.
    So do you see the dilemma you have created for yourself? On the one hand you are trying to pin the origin of L51 on four modern men and on the other you are choosing to believe someone who is telling you that an L23* man from 3000 BC and an L11* man 2350 BC cannot be the ancestors of modern L23 and L11 men respectively. I have a suggestion: stop asking for people's opinions. Read the ancient DNA papers from the past three years and form your own opinion. And please read up on the correlation between Steppe ancestry and L23 and how both show up at the same time in Central and Western Europe. Then read Reich's book where he refers to P312 as a "steppe" marker.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  10. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    . . . Then read Reich's book where he refers to P312 as a "steppe" marker.
    Amen!

    And one thing Reich points out is the thousands of ancient results he has in his lab that haven't been published yet because the paper writing can't keep up with the ancient dna testing.

    Reich knows a lot that we don't. If he says P312 is a "Y-chromosome type of steppe origin", I think you can take that to the bank.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY166> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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