Languages and Y-DNA lineages

[bolek]

I am trying to understand the relation between languages and Y-DNA lineages.

From R1a tree we see that R1a-Z645 was split into R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93.



Both Z93 and Z283 correlate with satem languages. Z93 with Indo-Iranian languages and Z283 with Baltic and Slavic languages. Indo-Iranian, Baltic and Slavic languages are moreover closely related and originated in Eastern Europe, some linguists say that some sort of Indo-Iranian-Baltic-Slavic linguistic continuum existed in the past.
So it seems natural to me to put those R1a lineages on language tree by Warnow as follows:



I would like to learn about correlations between other languages and Y-DNA lineages. Could you make some proposals.

[Michał]

I would like to learn about correlations between other languages and Y-DNA lineages. Could you make some proposals.

First, I would like to make an assertion that although the subject of this thread is indeed very interesting for most people investigating the deep ancestry of particular Y-DNA lineages, it is very hard to avoid excessive simplification when constructing a theory that explains most of those very intriguing questions that arise when studying the prehistory some the IE-speaking populations. Nevertheless, I know very few people who would definitely reject any potential relationship between different Y-DNA haplogroups/clades and some IE and non-IE languages, hence I would consider most of such speculations as at least partially justified, if only people were aware of all those limitations that need to be taken into account before jumping to any final conclusions. Another thing that makes such discussions “dangerous” is some strong animosity between the R1a and R1b members who fight for their right to call its own haplogroup a ”true Indo-European” one, which is of course a very childish attitude, to say the least.

I have already presented my point of view on this subject when posting in another thread on this forum a while ago :
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...0587#post10587

So this time I will only make a brief summary of my presumptions.

The R1a-Z645 branch shows indeed strong association with the potential Satem branch of the IE languages, although we should keep in mind that such hypothetical close relationship between the Balto-Slavic (associated mostly with the R1a-Z280 and R1a-M458 sub-branches of R1a-Z282) and Indo-Iranic (showing clear association with R1a-Z93) languages is rejected by many linguists (mostly by those who consider the Satemization process to be caused by a relatively late areal influence, instead of seeing it as something that indicates a common origin of those two families of languages. Additionally, many linguists are convinced that the ancient Indo-Iranic languages show many similarities to the ancient Greek, thus suggesting some genetic relationship between these languages. Personally, I would rather see it as indicating some early contacts between Proto-Indo-Iranic and another early IE branch that included Pre-Greek, which could have likely happened in the North-Pontic/North-Caspian region (already after the separation between Indo-Iranic and Balto-Slavic).

The R1b-Z2103/Z2105 branch is associated in my scenario with the very hypothetical Graeco-Armenian-Thracoid branch of IE that is currently represented by Greek, Armenian and Albanian.

The R1b-L51/L11 branch is representing another hypothetical branch of IE called “Italo-Celto-Germanic” (not shown as a separate entity in your linguistic tree), where R1b-P312 is associated with Italo-Celtic while R1b-U106 shows strong association with Germanic.

The association of some early separated R1b species (like R1b-M73 or some unknown R1b(xM239) subclades) with the Tocharian branch of IE is not considered by me as well supported, but I would, nevertheless, include this presumption to my hypothesis.

In the case of the Anatolian family of IE languages, I would assume that their ancestors were initially also associated with some early separated R1b subclades, like R1b-L389(xP297) and maybe R1b-V88. However, this was long before these Pre-Anatolians came to Anatolia, and this relationship has been lost due to some intensive interbreeding with some neighbouring South Asian and Middle Eastern non-R1b populations.

[Silesian]

R1a & R1b examples, in regions of interest for myself, Armenian Iranian Anatolian- plateau, Himalayan plateau, Crete plateau.

Grugni et al study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22815981
http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/07/...iation-in.html region around Armenia ancient Mede[ substrate] with also possible ancient Zoarostian/Avesta.

Himalaya Plateau. Nepal - written Sanskrit. R1a and R1b-m269- Newar

R1a1-M198 from the north-western region of India before the arrival of the Indo-
European speakers.23Although a much earlier entry ofR1a1-M198.........wiki "Newars are a multi-ethnic, linguistic and cultural community of Indo-Aryan and Tibeto-Burman ethnicities."

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707609446

I have a feeling also Lashiti plateau in Crete has some old variants of R1b and R1a that might be connected with the above mentioned regions.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...comms2871.html

Bulgaria R1a-458 & R1b L23 Razgrad
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23483890
http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/03/...arachanak.html

wiki...Razgrad was built upon the ruins of the Ancient Roman town of Abritus on the banks of the Beli Lom river. Abritus was built on a Thracian settlement of the 4th-5th century BC with unknown name

[newtoboard]

Would you connect the possible satemization of Thracian and Dacian to an influence of R1a-Z93+ or R1a-Z280+? I know some people still believe in the Thraco-Cimmerian theory.

[Baltimore1937]

My L664 (R1a) may have spoken a language(s) unrelated to PIE. PIE evolved later?

[newtoboard]

My L664 (R1a) may have spoken a language(s) unrelated to PIE. PIE evolved later?

L664+ certainly seems like a very early seperated branch but if it originated somewhere in NW Corded Ware it is ppossible it was also IE speaking. Modern IE languages linked to R1a are certainly linked only to Z645+ clades.

[newtoboard]

The association of some early separated R1b species (like R1b-M73 or some unknown R1b(xM239) subclades) with the Tocharian branch of IE is not considered by me as well supported, but I would, nevertheless, include this presumption to my hypothesis.

What do you think R1b-M73's original linguistic identity was then?

[Michał]

My L664 (R1a) may have spoken a language(s) unrelated to PIE. PIE evolved later?

I agree with newtoboard that they likely spoke an IE language, and I would also suspect that it was an extinct Satem dialect.

[Michał]

What do you think R1b-M73's original linguistic identity was then?

I really don't know, but if I had to guess, I would suspect an Early PIE dialect, most likely ancestral to Tocharian. The idea that Tocharian was from the very beginning associated with R1a (and more specifically with R1a-Z93) is simply not consisted with the linguistic data, unless it was an early separated R1a(xZ645) lineage that was nearly completely displaced by some other R1a and R1b lineages in more recent times (but we simply don't know such Asian R1a(xZ645) lineage that would fit this scenario).

[newtoboard]

I agree with newtoboard that they likely spoke an IE language, and I would also suspect that it was an extinct Satem dialect.

What about Z284+?