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Thread: West Slavic R1b

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    West Slavic R1b

    How common is R1b among West Slavic ethnic groups? Which subclades are the most common ones?

    Myres 2010 study had 18.4% of R1b in Poland. The same study had 21.6% of R1b for Czechia and 16.2% for Slovakia.

    Link to Myres 2010 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html

    According to Myres 2010 the most common branch of R1b in Poland is U106 and in Czech Republic P312 predominates.

    Among Lusatian Sorbs the percentage of R1b is 9.8% - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics

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    What other studies apart from Myres 2010 tackle the issue of R1b in West Slavic nations?

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    Among Kashubians:
    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kashubians.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians

    There are a few things to factor: remnants left from before the Slavic migration, immigration of Germanic people in Medieval times and, of course, recent German immigration (by recent, I mean after the Partition). Isn't U106 and P312 associated with Celto-Germanic ancestry? We know the Celts were present in many parts where the West Slavs settled (not so much in Kashubia, I believe). The studies I attached list R1b as 7.8% and 8.2%, respectively, but don't specify branches or subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Among Kashubians:
    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/kashubians.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians

    There are a few things to factor: remnants left from before the Slavic migration, immigration of Germanic people in Medieval times and, of course, recent German immigration (by recent, I mean after the Partition). Isn't U106 and P312 associated with Celto-Germanic ancestry? We know the Celts were present in many parts where the West Slavs settled (not so much in Kashubia, I believe). The studies I attached list R1b as 7.8% and 8.2%, respectively, but don't specify branches or subclades.
    Edit: perused the articles too quickly. The first article list two studies. R1b is 9.3% and 7.8%, respectively. The second article cites one of the studies already , mentioned for Kashubians and also lists a study for Kociewie, whereby 17.7% of those tested were R1b. Wouldn't Kociewie be an ancestral home for the Goths? I believe Kociewie was once pronounced Gociewie, as in land of the Goths.
    Last edited by leonardo; 09-03-2018 at 04:41 PM.

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    Kociewie is populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect. It isn't certain whether they are descended from 12th century settlers from Wielkopolska and Kujawy, or whether this area was populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect already in the Early Middle Ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Kociewie is populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect. It isn't certain whether they are descended from 12th century settlers from Wielkopolska and Kujawy, or whether this area was populated by speakers of Greater Polish dialect already in the Early Middle Ages.
    Going back into antiquity, this is part of the Amber Route. Goths and Celts would have occupied Kociewie. Too bad we don't have data regarding what remnant stayed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leonardo View Post
    Going back into antiquity, this is part of the Amber Route. Goths and Celts would have occupied Kociewie. Too bad we don't have data regarding what remnant stayed.
    Kociewie were rather Gepids, Goths more to the south:

    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...post&p=1717286



    Archaeological cultures in 1st century AD (according to A. Kokowski):



    Archaeological cultures in 4th century AD (according to A. Kokowski):

    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-04-2018 at 07:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Kociewie were rather Gepids, Goths more to the south:

    http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...post&p=1717286



    Archaeological cultures in 1st century AD (according to A. Kokowski):



    Archaeological cultures in 4th century AD (according to A. Kokowski):

    I take it the Stavonai are Proto Slavs?

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    While I can't give percentages, I can confirm that most subclades of R1b-P312 are present in Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine. I suspect that most are descendants of immigrants of Germanic origin from the modern period, as suggested above. Some may stem from an early Celtic presence there.

    There were Bell Beaker settlements in the early Bronze Age in the Oder and Vistula river areas, and these are likely to have been rich in P312. I suspect some of them were incorporated into the Slavic people on the arrival of the latter there. For example, there is a P312>L238 (the so called "Nordic" subclade of P312 which is primarily found in Scandinavia) from Poland who is on the earliest branch of the L238 tree. Even the most devoted proponents of the P312 = Celts theory have given up trying to connect L238 with the Celts.

    I can confirm there are P312>DF99 men from Poland, Ukraine (Lithuanian surname), the Czech Republic (Moravia) and two from Russia, one the descendant of an ancient Moscow Boyar family, though I suspect most and possibly all of them are ultimately of Germanic origin.

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    Was the Piast dynasty R1b or not? Wasn't this linked to a study that's been in the works several years now?
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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