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Thread: West Slavic R1b

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I do not know any relevant ancient DNA research at the territory of Slovakia (except of several papers from the period of so called Belobrdo culture, mix of Slavic and Hungarian popularions from 10th Century cemeteries).

    I believe that Population we call Slovaks now are till some extent auchtonous populations, it means that the Slavic movements as from 6th Century were not at all the replacement of previous populations (Celts and Germans). It is due to geography and slow flow of genes in the Northern Carpatians from all sides- compare fe with the Hunagrian/Slovak language border (not a good example due to strong genetic similarity of Hungarians to its neighbours).
    Yes, I am more interested in reading some ancient DNA papers from Slovakia all the way to Russia rather than another British paper but Harvard don't seem to be going in that direction. I want to know the relationship between Corded Ware and Beaker.

    I ran another model for you with Slavic_Bohemia:RISE569* added. See this map for locations of Beaker references:

    Attachment 26544

    "distance%=2.1728"
    Slovakian average [5 samples]
    Slavic_Bohemia,58.4
    Beaker_S_Germany_W_Czechia,36.6
    Beaker_N_Hungary,4.4
    LN_Sweden,0.6

    *RISE569, Early Slavic, 660-770 calCE
    Located northwest of Prague: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...150270268&z=10
    Known ancestry: 53.1 SW England, 29.7 SW Ireland, 6.3 SE Ireland, 6.3 SW Wales, 3.1 NW Ireland (?), 1.6 NW England
    LivingDNA: 54.8 S+C England, 31.8 Ireland, 7.7 S Wales, 5.7 N England
    Y-DNA (P): Wiltshire; mtDNA (M): West Cork; mtDNA (P): Limerick/Dublin (?)
    Avatar is my 100% East Devon 2x great grandfather.
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  3. #32
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    According to this SCY009 from Starosillya near Cherkasy was R1b:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....U152-L2-Sample

    Actually, Starosillya is located in the area of Chernoles culture:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernoles_culture

    ^^^ It is identified with "Scythian Farmers" from Herodotus:

    http://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/



    Location of SCY009 compared to the archeological cultures:



    Other possibilities:

    The Βουδίνοι / Budínoi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

    And the Νευροί / Neuri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri

    =====

    Similarity map for SCY009 based on Eurogenes K36 results:

    https://i.postimg.cc/370qtT17/Screen...._05_12.57.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Slightly off topic, but too many knowledgeable Slavic folks to not ask it here: The Scythian sample from northern Ukraine that is P312+ L2+ and plots with modern day Poles... he would have spoken an Eastern Indo-Iranian language?
    This guy is not Scythian Proper but rather "Scythan Farmer" from Chernoles culture:

    http://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/

    The Scythian-Farmers seem to be identical with the archaeological culture known as Chernoles, which has been identified with the Iron Age Slavs.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 10-08-2018 at 03:53 AM.

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  5. #33
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    From the link you provided, the Chernoles culture was ca. 1025–700 BC. SCY009 is 768-431 BC with a mid point of 600 BC, so he may have lived after the Chernoles Culture.

    Scythia circa 700-600 BC seems to cover the area of SCY009 according to these maps.



    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 10-08-2018 at 05:07 AM.
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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    From the link you provided, the Chernoles culture was ca. 1025–700 BC. SCY009 is 768-431 BC with a mid point of 600 BC, so he may have lived after the Chernoles Culture.

    Scythia circa 700-600 BC seems to cover the area of SCY009 according to these maps.
    Sample scy009 could still have represented some local post-Chernoles influences in the Scythian period, especially when knowing that Chernoles itself was strongly influenced by some Danubian populations, so this could explain his Celtic-like Y-DNA haplogroup. On the other hand, one cannot rule out some more recent (ie. post-Chernoles) admixture from the West. Here is a map from Eupedia where Celtic (Hallstatt>La Tene) influences are well seen in a region where scy009 was found:

    Last edited by Michał; 10-08-2018 at 09:17 AM.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Sample scy009 could still have represented some local post-Chernoles influences in the Scythian period, especially when knowing that Chernoles itself was strongly influenced by some Danubian populations, so this could explain his Celtic-like Y-DNA haplogroup. On the other hand, one cannot rule out some more recent (ie. post-Chernoles) admixture from the West. Here is a map from Eupedia where Celtic (Hallstatt>La Tene) influences are well seen in a region where scy009 was found:

    While the La Tene Celts eventually made that Far East, this was after scy009’s time frame. I haven’t seen where the Celts were in the Ukraine until the 3rd century BC.

    MIGRATION AND ETHNOGENESIS – Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region
    MAY 1, 2016 / 11 COMMENTS
    UD: Nov. 2017





    This article (in: Материалы по Археологии и Истории Античного и Средневекового Крыма Археология, история, нумизматика, сфрагистика иэпиграфика. (Moscow State University) Севастополь Тюмень Нижневартовск 2015. pp. 50-58.) provides an overview of the latest linguistic, numismatic and archaeological evidence pertaining to the expansion of the La Tene culture into the area of modern Ukraine and the North Pontic region from the 3rd century BC onwards. A distinction is observed between the situation in western Ukraine where the process of Celtic migration / colonization is reflected in the archaeological evidence, and further east where the presence of Celtic “warrior bands” / mercenary groups has been identified. Testimony in ancient sources to the emergence of mixed Celto-Scythian populations in this area and their ultimate contribution to the complicated ethnogenesis of the early medieval peoples, including the Slavs, is also discussed.
    But I’m the first to admit I’m no expert on the subject.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    While the La Tene Celts eventually made that Far East, this was after scy009’s time frame. I haven’t seen where the Celts were in the Ukraine until the 3rd century BC.
    Not an expert either but it's possible Celts or Celtic-like groups were that far east earlier than thought.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    How common is R1b among West Slavic ethnic groups? Which subclades are the most common ones?

    Myres 2010 study had 18.4% of R1b in Poland. The same study had 21.6% of R1b for Czechia and 16.2% for Slovakia.

    Link to Myres 2010 - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2010146a.html

    According to Myres 2010 the most common branch of R1b in Poland is U106 and in Czech Republic P312 predominates.

    Among Lusatian Sorbs the percentage of R1b is 9.8% - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#Genetics
    it's only some exotic ingredient in the Slavic R1a soup

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lehavre View Post
    it's only some exotic ingredient in the Slavic R1a soup
    Those percentages are too high to be considered "exotic".

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  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Those percentages are too high to be considered "exotic".
    exotic = of foreign origin, like Czars in Russia for example, it happens, sometimes, Scottish settlements in Poland etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lehavre View Post
    exotic = of foreign origin, like Czars in Russia for example, it happens, sometimes, Scottish settlements in Poland etc.
    What Y-DNA haplogroups aren't exotic then?

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