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Thread: West Slavic R1b

  1. #11
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    Like GoldenHind, I can't give any percentages for the basal clades of R1b in Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine.
    There is R1b-L51>CTS6889 and R1b-L51>L151>CTS4528. R1b-Z2103 has several subclades present. R1b-Z2103>CTS9219>Y5587>PH2302>BY593 used to be called the East European R1b haplotype or something like that when it was just a STR signature. Additionally this area used to have a large Ashkenazi Jewish population with R1b-V88, R1b-PF7563, R1b-Z2103>Y4362, L277 and R1b-Z2103>L584.
    Last edited by Joe B; 09-04-2018 at 11:59 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Was the Piast dynasty R1b or not? Wasn't this linked to a study that's been in the works several years now?
    In 2017 it was announced that two 16th century Mazovian Piasts - brothers Stanisław (born 1501 died 1524) and Janusz III (born 1502 died 1526) - were tested and their Y-DNA haplogroup was R1b. I guess this is rather certain (what was their exact subclade has not been announced yet), but as you can see they are very late Piasts (the dynasty got extinct around 1675-1706), and more Piast samples have to be tested - including other branches (not just Mazovian) - to know for sure what was their original Y-DNA. There could be NPEs somewhere down the line. One problem is that many of supposed Piast graves have turned out to be empty upon examination. For example geneticists from Poznań University (Figlerowicz's team) visited the Lubiąż Abbey in Silesia to collect DNA samples from bones of several Piasts buried there - but they found out that all the graves have been plundered, probably during or after WW2 (it could actually take place even as far back as the 1740s when Prussians conquered Silesia and abolished all of its monasteries and abbeys - they later turned the Lubiąż Abbey into a military garrison and they evicted all Cistercian monks from Silesia).

    It is known that some Piasts were buried in this abbey but the graves are all empty (also the crypt with burials of monks was devastated by the Red Army in 1945, but it still has human remains - they tried to find possible Piast remains mixed up with monks):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubi%C...#Abbey_history

    One possible explanation why Piast bones are gone, is that someone could evacuate them from there.

    Maybe the German Army or SS evacuated the bones (where?) when withdrawing west in 1945. Nobody knows.

    They could be gone long before that, as I said Prussian takeover in the 1740s is also a probable date.

    Also after WW2 for many years the abbey was deserted and any robbers could visit and take what they wanted.

    =====

    At one point the Piasts became so numerous that it caused fragmentation of Poland between rival dukes.

    This video shows Piast dynasty geneaological tree, only Piasts born between ca. 1100 - ca. 1310:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDdgTZopVw



    This video shows how borders of districts and duchies ruled by each prince were changing over time:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Yr06xWvlw

    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-09-2018 at 11:10 PM.

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  5. #13
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    In MDLP K23b calculator on GEDmatch, Sorbs appear to be more "hunter-gatherer" genetically than Western Poles:

    Lusatian Sorbs (average):

    European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.33
    Caucasian 27.32
    European_Early_Farmers 11.27
    (...)

    Central Polish (example):

    European_Hunters_Gatherers 52.57
    Caucasian 28.1
    European_Early_Farmers 11.09
    (...)

    Western Polish (example1):

    European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.00
    Caucasian 28.53
    European_Early_Farmers 14.71
    (...)

    Western Polish (example2):

    European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.61
    Caucasian 27.23
    European_Early_Farmers 13.91
    (...)

    Grand Duchy of Lithuania, ethnic Polish (example):

    European_Hunters_Gatherers 60.88
    Caucasian 31.18
    Near_East 2.59
    European_Early_Farmers 2.45
    (...)

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Some may stem from an early Celtic presence there.

    There were Bell Beaker settlements in the early Bronze Age in the Oder and Vistula river areas
    I posted some maps here:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post484310

    "Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Poland" (2014):



    Celts in Southern Poland:

    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-poland/



    "Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Southern Poland" (2016):



    My Y-DNA subclade might come from those Celts, unless it migrated to Poland later.

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  9. #15
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    As far as U106... in my ancestral group above DF98 (and even in DF98 - one tester under DF98 lists his origin as Poland - but no mdka info) we have a few testers who list their origin as Polish - one family comes to mind that is Z304 (which is immediately above DF98) - under Z156 there are two from Poland not under Z304 then under Z304 2 kits: a kit that is Z156>Z306>Z304>BY12480>A10971>BY3239>BY18857> and mdka Ignacy Skrzatek Born, 1895 in Stara Zbelutka. Also there is a kit that is Z156>Z306>Z304>BY12480>BY12482>Y24836>BY12484>BY19 410> and their mdka is Hinak vel Hinczka z Krzyzanowo 1398 Wielkopolska.

    I suppose this isn't that surprising since we found DF98>S1911>S1894 in that Unetice sample from Jinonice near Prague in sample I7040 ;-).
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    While I can't give percentages, I can confirm that most subclades of R1b-P312 are present in Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine. I suspect that most are descendants of immigrants of Germanic origin from the modern period, as suggested above. Some may stem from an early Celtic presence there.

    There were Bell Beaker settlements in the early Bronze Age in the Oder and Vistula river areas, and these are likely to have been rich in P312. I suspect some of them were incorporated into the Slavic people on the arrival of the latter there. For example, there is a P312>L238 (the so called "Nordic" subclade of P312 which is primarily found in Scandinavia) from Poland who is on the earliest branch of the L238 tree. Even the most devoted proponents of the P312 = Celts theory have given up trying to connect L238 with the Celts.

    I can confirm there are P312>DF99 men from Poland, Ukraine (Lithuanian surname), the Czech Republic (Moravia) and two from Russia, one the descendant of an ancient Moscow Boyar family, though I suspect most and possibly all of them are ultimately of Germanic origin.
    I just recently posted this as I believe my Lithuanian family has the same roots and it connected to the Russian Boyar families that have clear lineage migration from Germany. FWIW, my Ancestry DNA profile shows 87% Lithuanian and 'Russia/Eastern Europe' it does not specify Germany or central Europe, but perhaps it is linked in with the broader group.

  12. #17
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    Big Y results for my father are partially in.

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  14. #18
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    There are three possibilities of R1b in Slovakia:
    a/ Medieval influx of genes with German settlers (its higher percentage at the former German regions in Slovakia was up till now nor target of any research).
    b/ Celtiv and pre-Celtic influence. This is a very strong theory, celtic and celtic-(pre-slav) populations were pushed by Romans and Germans ( Quadi) from Danube region to the northern Carpatian mountains
    c/ Old indoeuropean roots - there are some R1b subclades in Slovakia older thah those Celtiv ones.

  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    There are three possibilities of R1b in Slovakia:
    a/ Medieval influx of genes with German settlers (its higher percentage at the former German regions in Slovakia was up till now nor target of any research).
    b/ Celtiv and pre-Celtic influence. This is a very strong theory, celtic and celtic-(pre-slav) populations were pushed by Romans and Germans ( Quadi) from Danube region to the northern Carpatian mountains
    c/ Old indoeuropean roots - there are some R1b subclades in Slovakia older thah those Celtiv ones.
    You seem to have overlooked the Early Germanic tribes, like Quadi.

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  17. #20
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    This is very experimental but I added modern Polish to my regional Beaker references and ran the Slovakian average:

    "distance%=0.7637"
    Slovakian
    Polish,89.8
    Beaker_NW_Czechia,4.6
    Beaker_SE_Germany,2
    Beaker_N_Hungary,1.4
    Beaker_W_Germany,0.8
    Beaker_SW_Poland,0.6
    Beaker_S_Germany,0.4
    Beaker_Iberia,0.2
    Beaker_SE_France,0.2

    Beaker_NW_Czechia + Beaker_SE_Germany might be a proto-Celtic signal.

    I didn't know which ancient references to add for West Slavic people I'm sorry.
    Last edited by Capitalis; 10-05-2018 at 05:39 PM.

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