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Thread: West Slavic R1b

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalis View Post

    Beaker_NW_Czechia + Beaker_SE_Germany might be a proto-Celtic signal.

    I didn't know which ancient references to add for West Slavic people I'm sorry.
    Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I do not know any relevant ancient DNA research at the territory of Slovakia (except of several papers from the period of so called Belobrdo culture, mix of Slavic and Hungarian popularions from 10th Century cemeteries).

    I believe that Population we call Slovaks now are till some extent auchtonous populations, it means that the Slavic movements as from 6th Century were not at all the replacement of previous populations (Celts and Germans). It is due to geography and slow flow of genes in the Northern Carpatians from all sides- compare fe with the Hunagrian/Slovak language border (not a good example due to strong genetic similarity of Hungarians to its neighbours).

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     Capitalis (10-07-2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    You seem to have overlooked the Early Germanic tribes, like Quadi.
    Thanks Michal but I do not understand- I have mentioned Quadi under point b/ in my post. Of course they are historically strong ethnicum at the territory north of middle Danube.

    There were very strong Celtic settlements, fe in Pressburger Tor (Bratislava Gate)- between Hainburg an der Donau and its celtic fortress in Braunsberg, with central oppidum in Bratislava to the river Vah (Waag). So here I would expect a lot of celtic R1b remnants within living population of Slovaks Austrians and Moravians - and this R1b - it is extremely difficult to call "West Slavic", even if the population speaks Slavic language(s) here.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    Thanks Michal but I do not understand- I have mentioned Quadi under point b/ in my post.
    Your point b is about Celtic and pre-Celtic influences, which hardly encompasses the Early Germanic newcomers who were likely rich in R1b. In other words, you never mention the Early Germanic tribes as another (ie. non-Celtic or non-pre-Celtic) source of R1b from outside. You only mention the Quadi as those who have partially displaced the Celts (or pushed them towards the Carpathian mountains).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Your point b is about Celtic and pre-Celtic influences, which hardly encompasses the Early Germanic newcomers who were likely rich in R1b. In other words, you never mention the Early Germanic tribes as another (ie. non-Celtic or non-pre-Celtic) source of R1b from outside. You only mention the Quadi as those who have partially displaced the Celts (or pushed them towards the Carpathian mountains).
    Yes now I understand, you are very right. In the middle Danube region could be more waves of Germanic R1b, the one with an early Germans till 6th Century AD, then early medieval ones after destroying of Avars in area of Neusiedler See south of Vienna and Carnuntum, then late 10th Century and later - followed by 13th Century and so on in all region of southern Moravia, western Slovakia and northwestern Hungary.

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     Michał (10-06-2018)

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    But there is something else quite interesting - there is quite a lot (according to 23and me) R1b subclade R-Y5587 in north Carpathian Mountains. This 5587 is older than Germanic or Celtic influences. And that could be interesting to research more, because this one seems to be autochtonnous in region.

    So we have within so called Western Slavic regions many different R1b from different sources and populations, and we do nor know "who is who". I would not be surprised of finding stronger R1b geographic islands in the future in this region at all.

    And I am here not mentioning the R1b carried by and through real Slavic migrants (if there really was such a migration) after year of 500 AD to Central Europe south and west of Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinmkp View Post
    But there is something else quite interesting - there is quite a lot (according to 23and me) R1b subclade R-Y5587 in north Carpathian Mountains. This 5587 is older than Germanic or Celtic influences. And that could be interesting to research more, because this one seems to be autochtonnous in region.
    Clade Y5587 under R1b-Z2103 is indeed very old, but also quite widely distributed, so it cannot be considered as specifically associated with the Northern Carpathian region. There are two major subclades under Y5587 and one of them (the much older one) is common among the Ossetians and also present in Bulgaria and Spain, so one can suspect that it was initially associated with some Scytho-Sarmatian tribes (which is consistent with the recent aDNA results suggesting a very significant presence of R1b-Z2103 in the ancient Scythian population). The other major subclade under Y5587 is much bigger but relatively young, as it descends from a common ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago (according to YFull). This subclade, named R-PH2302 or R-Y14300, is quite common in many Slavic-speaking or Slavic-influenced populations, so it could have been present among the Proto-Slavs, possibly as a result of an early (relatively small and male-specific) Scytho-Sarmatian admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    The other major subclade under Y5587 is much bigger but relatively young, as it descends from a common ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago (according to YFull). This subclade, named R-PH2302 or R-Y14300, is quite common in many Slavic-speaking or Slavic-influenced populations, so it could have been present among the Proto-Slavs, possibly as a result of an early (relatively small and male-specific) Scytho-Sarmatian admixture.
    Thank you Michal! It would be very nice to have a distribution map of those subclades in Central Europe (DE, PL, CZ, SK, AT, HU, SLO, CRO, RO). We still miss some kind of "DNA Atlas" as Britons or recently Irish do have.

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    Slightly off topic, but too many knowledgeable Slavic folks to not ask it here:

    The Scythian sample from northern Ukraine that is P312+ L2+ and plots with modern day Poles... he would have spoken an Eastern Indo-Iranian language?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The Scythian sample from northern Ukraine that is P312+ L2+ and plots with modern day Poles... he would have spoken an Eastern Indo-Iranian language?
    I suppose there are many options to consider here. As a member of the Scythian community he likely spoke Scythian (thus an Iranian language), but he may also have some very recent Central European (most likely Celtic) ancestors (for example a Celtic father or grandfather, which would explain his Y-DNA haplogroup), so such a hypothetical Celtic admixture could have shifted him significantly west (towards modern South Poles) on a PCA plot. The IBD analysis with ancient Celtic and Scythian genomes should help us answer this question. The Celtic influences in the Carpathian region (including the East Carpathian region) are supported by archaeology, so this scenario seems to make sense, even though some alternative hypotheses cannot be ruled out.
    Last edited by Michał; 10-06-2018 at 03:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    How common is R1b among West Slavic ethnic groups? Which subclades are the most common ones?
    I've just got the Y-DNA results (37 STRs) for my very distant cousin who is supposed to inherit his Y chromosome from one of my 6th great grandfathers, and it seems that this patrilineage (now associated with a Polish last name) was of deep Germanic origin, as the STR results strongly suggest R1b-U106. More specifically, it seems to be a specifically Polish subclade Z17913 deep under L47>Z159>S3251. Intriguingly, the TMRCA age for this Polish (or West SLavic) subclade Z17913 is about 1500 years according to YFull, while the parental "Germanic" clade (quite common among the Britons, among others) is only 1800 years old, which suggests that my Early Germanic ancestors from this particular lineage came to Poland between 200 CE and 500 CE, or between 100 BC and 250 CE when assuming that YFull underestimates by about 20%. I need to order an SNP test to confirm my STR-based prediction for clade Z17913. Unfortunately, my cousin has no Y-STR matches beyond 12 STRs.

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