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Thread: News about Rurikid Y-DNA: Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav I

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    In anycase, some of the lines that claim to be Rurikid either contain a non-paternal event or have a false tree.
    Yeah but the core and vast majority of Rurikid lineages belong to just 2 subclades, one of I2a and one of N1c.

    And then you have minor lineages including few different subclades of R1a which are mostly due to false trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If we assume that NPE or many NPEs happened later, we should have many different Y-DNA lineages instead of just two.

    All of tested descendants of Izyaslav are I2a and the same subclade, they do not belong to several different haplogroups.

    Re 1. Not necessarily.

    Re 2. Doesn't matter. The objection still stands.

    Using Ockhamist logic. I admit that your point is possible. I admit that a good case can be made for it to be probable. But it is not "demonstrated" (which means that it is not at all verified and irrefutable truth)
    Last edited by George; 09-06-2018 at 04:45 PM.

  3. #23
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    So Yngvi was N1c?

    Olaf II of Norway = apparently he had N1c haplogroup,
    was son of Harald Grenske, who
    was son of Gudrød Bjørnsson, who
    was son of Bjørn Farmann, who
    was son of Harald Fairhair, who
    was son of Halfdan the Black, who
    was son of Gudrød the Hunter, who
    was son of Halfdan the Mild, who
    was son of Eystein Halfdansson, who
    was son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who
    was son of Olof Trätälja, who
    was son of Ingjald illråde, who
    was son of Anund, who
    was son of Yngvar Harra, who
    was son of Eysteinn, who
    was son of Eadgils (in Beowulf), who
    was son of Óttarr vendilkráka (Ohthere in Beowulf), who
    was son of Egil Vendelkråke (Ongentheow in Beowulf), who
    was son of Aun the Old, who
    was son of Jorund, who
    was son of Yngvi, who
    was son of Alrek, who
    was son of Agne, who
    was son of Dag the Wise , who
    was son of Dyggvi, who
    was son of Domar, who
    was son of Domalde, who
    was son of Visbur, who
    was son of Vanlandi, who
    was son of Sveigðir, who
    was son of Fjölnir, who
    was son of Freyr, who
    was son of Njörðr, who
    was son of Yngvi = founder of the Yngling dynasty, N1c haplogroup
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-06-2018 at 10:16 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If we assume that NPE or many NPEs happened later, we should have many different Y-DNA lineages instead of just two.
    Depends on who is being tested to establish those two lineages and when their lineages diverged. I don't know what the paper says about that, you'd have to explain.

    Example: if we have three descendants of Vsevolod and three descendants of Izyaslav, what are the last common ancestors of each of those groups. Vsevolod and Izyaslav? Or someone later? Ideally you'd have descendants from MULTIPLE sons of each to be able to make the claim.

    Maybe that standard is met in some way, but so far it has not been explained (I'd read the paper, but don't have the language skills).

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    The Arab term "Saqaliba" (borrowed from the Byzantines) was used more broadly than just "Slavs". It included steppe Turks, Hungarians, Ugro-Finns, and Northmen...
    https://www.jassa.org/?p=1171

    "The Rus and the Saqaliba go there (...)" - why did Ibrahim distinguish them?

    Magyars were also distinguished in Ibrahim's account - he called them Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    https://www.jassa.org/?p=1171

    "The Rus and the Saqaliba go there (...)" - why did Ibrahim distinguish them?

    Magyars were also distinguished in Ibrahim's account - he called them Turks.

    Perhaps because he was actually "on the spot" so to speak, unlike other major Arab and Persian sources.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Igor is the slavicized Ingvar. We won't settle the DNA business until we can test some older bones. But there is no doubt about the Scandinavian contribution to the emergence of the original Rus. Thanks to the association of local allies , both Finnic and Slavic. One theory (predating both Nestor and Ilarion) stated s.a. 882 in the Primary Chronicle was that "Rus" was the name of the warrior band which conquered Kyiv led by Oleg, and which included Scandinavians, Ugro-Finns, and Slavs. Constantine Porphyrogenitus gives both the Scandinavian and Slavic names of the Dnipro Falls in his 952 treatise. After 944, the Primary Chronicle restricts the name "Rus" (as an ethnonym) to the Polany tribe of today's Central Ukraine ). Tjere is some similarity to what happened in Bulgaria, with incoming steppe "Bulgars" giving their name to the whole as they became linguistically and culturally Slavicized).
    To me the Rus names seem Uralic and more specifically Hungarian related.

    Compare 'Leanti' with the Hungarian verb leont 'pour off'.*

    Aeifor with Hungarian a fészek 'the nest' ('nest' in proto-Uralic *pesä, Eastern Khanty pəl, Tundra Enets fire, Komi poz etc.)

    Oulvorsi with Hungarian verb elválaszt 'to separate, to divide'*

    Varouforos to Hungarian fertő 'morass, quagmire, swamp, marsh' and a word 'var-' (?) that should have meant 'great'/'large' (Compare Finnish avara, Estonia avar 'spacious')

    *We should take into account Hungarian and proto-Uralic nominalizing suffixes because those words were most likely nouns.

    The meanings I propose are consistent with the Greek text (the meaning of the Slavonic names at least). I will explain in a future post probably. Or not.

    I don't believe my methodology is very scientific but the methodology of the Normanists is not scientific at all, so whatever.

    The name Gelandri is not a Rus name according to the text, even though the Normanists include it for some reason. The name Essoupi is uncertain because it appears to have been the same in both languages which seems weird.
    Last edited by Kanenas; 09-12-2018 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    Maybe that standard is met in some way, but so far it has not been explained (I'd read the paper, but don't have the language skills).
    The paper seems to provide some wild speculations.

    I trust Russian geneticist Oleg Balanovsky and other geneticists from the Russian Academy of Sciences saying that Rurikid come from a rare subclade of the haplogroup N1c1 which can be found in Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So Yngvi was N1c?

    Olaf II of Norway = apparently he had N1c haplogroup,
    was son of Harald Grenske, who
    was son of Gudrød Bjørnsson, who
    was son of Bjørn Farmann, who
    was son of Harald Fairhair, who
    was son of Halfdan the Black, who
    was son of Gudrød the Hunter, who
    was son of Halfdan the Mild, who
    was son of Eystein Halfdansson, who
    was son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who
    was son of Olof Trätälja, who
    was son of Ingjald illråde, who
    was son of Anund, who
    was son of Yngvar Harra, who
    was son of Eysteinn, who
    was son of Eadgils (in Beowulf), who
    was son of Óttarr vendilkráka (Ohthere in Beowulf), who
    was son of Egil Vendelkråke (Ongentheow in Beowulf), who
    was son of Aun the Old, who
    was son of Jorund, who
    was son of Yngvi, who
    was son of Alrek, who
    was son of Agne, who
    was son of Dag the Wise , who
    was son of Dyggvi, who
    was son of Domar, who
    was son of Domalde, who
    was son of Visbur, who
    was son of Vanlandi, who
    was son of Sveigðir, who
    was son of Fjölnir, who
    was son of Freyr, who
    was son of Njörðr, who
    was son of Yngvi = founder of the Yngling dynasty, N1c haplogroup
    Cant see much reason to believe Olav II was N1c. Some supposed bones of Olav II is tested and belongs to I-M170 and probably I1.
    But it is not proven that it is his bones and we dont know for sure if the lineage up to Harald Hårfagre is correct and certainly not up to Yngvi..
    Last edited by davidwhowden; 05-22-2019 at 12:36 AM.

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