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Thread: News about Rurikid Y-DNA: Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav I

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    News about Rurikid Y-DNA: Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav I

    Link to publication in Russian:

    https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...st3-21.2015.71

    https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...1.2015.71/207/

    It turns out that Vsevolod I (father of Vladimir Monomakh) was not a biological son of Yaroslav I the Wise, because his wife - Ingegerd of Sweden - cheated on him with king Olaf of Norway or with some varangian. The result of that NPE was N1c among his heirs. On the other hand, the original Rurikid Y-DNA was preserved among descendants of Izyaslav I, including for example princes of Turov. If these conclusions are correct then the original Y-DNA lineage of the early Rurikids was the typically Slavic I2a-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), most common among South and East Slavs.

    I2a-Din was already found in sample Sunghir6 from Early Medieval Russia (1040-1220 AD):

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten..._Sikora_SM.pdf

    Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...tter_of_Sweden

    I guess her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...eden#Sainthood

    ====

    Update:

    Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

    Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.

    Vsevolod was born shortly after King Olaf departed back to Norway (his exile in Russia lasted for one year).

    So there is a possibility of non-paternal event in N1c line. There is no similar story surrounding I2a line.

    If Ingegerd did not cheat, then the only other option, is that Vsevolod was adopted, not her biological son.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-06-2018 at 01:04 PM.

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    That would be interesting (I do not read Russian). N1c is found in the descendants of Vsevolod (e.g. the Gagarin family), but also in his brother Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky). The FT-DNA project claims for this reason that N1c was already present in Yaroslav the Wise (unless of course Ingigerd cheated more than once).
    Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since the descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
    Is the I2a that the article discusses also found in lineages that do not descend from Iziaslav? that is, Rurikids that do not descend from Yaroslav the Wise?

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    Quite interesting, cuckoldry has definitely been around for a long time!

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    What? Rurikid N1c matches the Primary Chronicle account perfectly. Everyone knows that. I assume the "news" here is anti-Normanist fabrication intended delegitimize Swedish participation in the foundation of the Kievan Rus'.

    Fake news.
    My 23andMe kit into Eurogenes K36 then oracle (thanks to lukaszM):

    nMonte restricted: Ireland 48.05, SW-England 20.95, Finnish East 20.05, Russian Tver 3.70, Latvian 3.15, Mari 1.90, Lithuanian 1.30, French Basque 0.90, Orcadian 0.00

    nMonte full: Ireland 45.70, Finnish East 20.05, SW-England 20.05, Russian Tver 4.10, Orcadian 3.05, Latvian 2.45, Mari 1.95, Lithuanian 1.45, French Basque 1.00, W-England 0.15, Belarusian East 0.05

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Link to publication in Russian:

    https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...st3-21.2015.71

    https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...1.2015.71/207/

    It turns out that Vsevolod I (father of Vladimir Monomakh) was not a biological son of Yaroslav I the Wise, because his wife - Ingegerd of Sweden - cheated on him with some Varangian guy. The result of that non-paternal event was N1c among his heirs. On the other hand, the original Rurikid Y-DNA was preserved among descendants of Izyaslav I, including for example princes of Turov. If these conclusions are correct then the original Y-DNA lineage of the early Rurikids was the typically Slavic I2a-CTS10228 (I2a-Din), most common among South and East Slavs.

    I2a-Din was already found in sample Sunghir6 from Early Medieval Russia (1040-1220 AD):

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten..._Sikora_SM.pdf

    Villain accused of cheating by Russian scientists (born in Sigtuna, from which Viking Age DNA was published recently):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...tter_of_Sweden

    I guess her status of a "Saint" is now very questionable:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...eden#Sainthood

    I have a sneaking feeling that we are far from knowing "for sure" who cheated on who and when. Especially if you basically "guess backwards" so to speak, and with no guarantee whatsoever as to "non-paternal" events at any point prior to the first firmly dated aDNA..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    What? Rurikid N1c matches the Primary Chronicle account perfectly. Everyone knows that. I assume the "news" here is anti-Normanist fabrication intended delegitimize Swedish participation in the foundation of the Kievan Rus'.

    Fake news.

    The early "dynastic" account of the Primary Chronicle was concocted by Nestor of the Caves Monastery in Kyiv in the late 11th c. It replaced an earlier account by Metropolitan Ilarion (which survives in his "Slovo" of 1049) and which makes Igor (Ingvar) the originator of the dynasty. Rurik was still irrelevant then (and continued to be largely so even after Nestor, judging by the extreme paucity of princes who bore this name). In any case "Old Igor" (as per Ilarion) could have been N1c. And other possibles (though I2a would rank as the lowest probable). If we don't trust "Saint Olga" (should we? ) the not easily resolvable problem could have begun even then....

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    The early "dynastic" account of the Primary Chronicle was concocted by Nestor of the Caves Monastery in Kyiv in the late 11th c. It replaced an earlier account by Metropolitan Ilarion (which survives in his "Slovo" of 1049) and which makes Igor (Ingvar) the originator of the dynasty. Rurik was still irrelevant then (and continued to be largely so even after Nestor, judging by the extreme paucity of princes who bore this name). In any case "Old Igor" (as per Ilarion) could have been N1c. And other possibles (though I2a would rank as the lowest probable). If we don't trust "Saint Olga" (should we? ) the not easily resolvable problem could have begun even then....
    Founders' names often go unrepeated. It depends on the family tradition. In any event, Rurikovich N is a fully Germanized branch specific to Sweden.

    https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

    I didn't know about this Ingvar, and as far as I2 I've nothing against that. We'll learn what's going on with the Hohenzollerns eventually It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N in this particular genealogical context, and wants to sabotage the entire thing in favour of another Slavic clade when that's hardly necessary for Kievan Rus'. Everyone contributed, the Slavs most of all in the long run.
    My 23andMe kit into Eurogenes K36 then oracle (thanks to lukaszM):

    nMonte restricted: Ireland 48.05, SW-England 20.95, Finnish East 20.05, Russian Tver 3.70, Latvian 3.15, Mari 1.90, Lithuanian 1.30, French Basque 0.90, Orcadian 0.00

    nMonte full: Ireland 45.70, Finnish East 20.05, SW-England 20.05, Russian Tver 4.10, Orcadian 3.05, Latvian 2.45, Mari 1.95, Lithuanian 1.45, French Basque 1.00, W-England 0.15, Belarusian East 0.05

    Maternal uncle: R1b-U152

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    This is the exact subclade of I2a-Din which the Rurikids had, Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/

    Regarding Rurikid origins:

    "The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be 'one of the Slavic peoples'. Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so 'Slavicization' argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971. The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by 'Romanovs' (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves."

    As for Ingegerd's lover:

    Real biological father of Vsevolod could actually be not just some Varangian, but even king St. Olaf of Norway himself, so his sainthood can be doubted as well. Moreover, the exact N1c subclade of Monomakh's line is distinctively Scandinavian. As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged also in Poland-Lithuania.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I have a sneaking feeling that we are far from knowing "for sure" who cheated on who and when. Especially if you basically "guess backwards" so to speak, and with no guarantee whatsoever as to "non-paternal" events at any point prior to the first firmly dated aDNA..
    Well Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

    One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

    Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

    And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    That would be interesting (I do not read Russian). N1c is found in the descendants of Vsevolod (e.g. the Gagarin family), but also in his brother Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky). The FT-DNA project claims for this reason that N1c was already present in Yaroslav the Wise (unless of course Ingigerd cheated more than once).
    Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since the descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
    Is the I2a that the article discusses also found in lineages that do not descend from Iziaslav? that is, Rurikids that do not descend from Yaroslav the Wise?
    It is known that Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left, whereas there are no such stories surrounding the Izyaslavich branch at all.

    Those R1a bearers are addressed in the study. Their family lineages were modified in 16th century to be placed better at the Tsar's court. So they are not real Rurikids.

    All the modern Rurikids tested are from two sons (well, the latter most likely isn't) of Yaroslav the Wise: Iziaslav and Vsevolod (and from his son Vladimir Monomakh).

    N1c in descendants of Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky) descend from Yuri's brother Mstislav, who was son of Vladimir Monomakh, who himself was Vsevolod's son, so there is nothing to be explained there and only one non-paternity event is enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N
    Not really, this Russian study specifically says that R1a are not real Rurikids but nobles who falsified their genealogy to link themselves to the dynasty. So we are only left with I2a and N1c. Does King Olaf II Haraldsson have any known living descendants or relatives with the same Y-DNA?

    Is it possible to check if King Olaf of Norway was indeed N1c?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-06-2018 at 01:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Founders' names often go unrepeated. It depends on the family tradition. In any event, Rurikovich N is a fully Germanized branch specific to Sweden.

    https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik

    I didn't know about this Ingvar, and as far as I2 I've nothing against that. We'll learn what's going on with the Hohenzollerns eventually It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N in this particular genealogical context, and wants to sabotage the entire thing in favour of another Slavic clade when that's hardly necessary for Kievan Rus'. Everyone contributed, the Slavs most of all in the long run.
    Igor is the slavicized Ingvar. We won't settle the DNA business until we can test some older bones. But there is no doubt about the Scandinavian contribution to the emergence of the original Rus. Thanks to the association of local allies , both Finnic and Slavic. One theory (predating both Nestor and Ilarion) stated s.a. 882 in the Primary Chronicle was that "Rus" was the name of the warrior band which conquered Kyiv led by Oleg, and which included Scandinavians, Ugro-Finns, and Slavs. Constantine Porphyrogenitus gives both the Scandinavian and Slavic names of the Dnipro Falls in his 952 treatise. After 944, the Primary Chronicle restricts the name "Rus" (as an ethnonym) to the Polany tribe of today's Central Ukraine ). Tjere is some similarity to what happened in Bulgaria, with incoming steppe "Bulgars" giving their name to the whole as they became linguistically and culturally Slavicized).

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