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Thread: News about Rurikid Y-DNA: Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav I

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This is the exact subclade of I2a-Din which the Rurikids had, Y13498: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y13498/

    Regarding Rurikid origins:

    "The original of Primary Chronicle didn't survive, but still, the Hypatian Codex clearly separates Varangians from Rus as people, and the earliest Arab sources, such as Ibn-Khurradadhbih, also explicitly mention Rus to be 'one of the Slavic peoples'. Moreover, in Primary Chronicle it is also mentioned how Oleg (who was Rurik's contemporary, so 'Slavicization' argument is impossible) and his druzhina swore by Perun and Veles to confirm a peace treaty with Byzantium in 907, and we find the same done by Igor in 945, and again by Sviatoslav in 971. The whole mantra that Rurikids were Scandinavians starts with the Normanist theories in 18th century, furthered by 'Romanovs' (not the original line) and Gerhard Friedrich Muller, and was opposed by most sane-minded members of Russian intelligentsia, even by Rurikid descendants themselves."

    As for Ingegerd's lover:

    Real biological father of Vsevolod could actually be not just some Varangian, but even king St. Olaf of Norway himself, so his sainthood can be doubted as well. Moreover, the exact N1c subclade of Monomakh's line is distinctively Scandinavian. As for I2a1b, among the Izyaslavich descendants that turned out to belong to it were also men of Czetwertynski family, whose princely title was acknowledged also in Poland-Lithuania.
    The Arab term "Saqaliba" (borrowed from the Byzantines) was used more broadly than just "Slavs". It included steppe Turks, Hungarians, Ugro-Finns, and Northmen...

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    Very unusual post here that should considered inappropriate as well as certain comments posted in the thread, I would assume.

    There is quite high level discussion usually regarding aDNA on this forum since I started reading posts around 2 weeks ago when the kids went back to school. I have to say however as being 1/8 Russian and 1/16 Swedish I am reading appauled by some accusations without any aDNA to back up the outlandish claims to rewrite Slavic and Norse history.

    Without any proofs of aDNA, sounds like TMZ gossiping dude.

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    Weak jab at Slavic noble lines I will add.

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    Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

    Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.

    Vsevolod was born shortly after King Olaf departed back to Norway (his exile in Russia lasted for one year).

    So there is a possibility of non-paternal event in N1c line. There is no similar story surrounding I2a line.

    If Ingegerd did not cheat, then the only other option, is that Vsevolod was adopted, not her biological son.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    That would be interesting (I do not read Russian). N1c is found in the descendants of Vsevolod (e.g. the Gagarin family), but also in his brother Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky). The FT-DNA project claims for this reason that N1c was already present in Yaroslav the Wise (unless of course Ingigerd cheated more than once).
    Within Sviatoslav's line, a (second?) non-paternity event must have happened, since the descendants from Yuri prince of Torussa (the Obolonsky and Volkonsky families) show R1a, while from Yuri's brother Mstislav, the N1c Massalsky family descends.
    Is the I2a that the article discusses also found in lineages that do not descend from Iziaslav? that is, Rurikids that do not descend from Yaroslav the Wise?
    It is known that Olaf of Norway was quite intimate with Ingergerd during his exile in Russia, and it is symptomatic that she gave birth to Vsevolod (father of Monomakh, and only men of Monomaschich descent are N1c1) not so long after he left, whereas there are no such stories surrounding the Izyaslavich branch at all.

    Those R1a bearers are addressed in the study. Their family lineages were modified in 16th century to be placed better at the Tsar's court. So they are not real Rurikids.

    All the modern Rurikids tested are from two sons (well, the latter most likely isn't) of Yaroslav the Wise: Iziaslav and Vsevolod (and from his son Vladimir Monomakh).

    N1c in descendants of Sviatoslav's line (e.g. the family Massalsky) descend from Yuri's brother Mstislav, who was son of Vladimir Monomakh, who himself was Vsevolod's son, so there is nothing to be explained there and only one non-paternity event is enough.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-06-2018 at 12:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    I have a sneaking feeling that we are far from knowing "for sure" who cheated on who and when. Especially if you basically "guess backwards" so to speak, and with no guarantee whatsoever as to "non-paternal" events at any point prior to the first firmly dated aDNA..
    Well Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

    One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

    Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf II left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

    And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-06-2018 at 01:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    It just sounds to me like some crackpot's furious Rurikovich R1a is junior to N
    Not really, this Russian study specifically says that R1a are not real Rurikids but nobles who falsified their genealogy to link themselves to the dynasty. So we are only left with I2a and N1c. Does King Olaf II Haraldsson have any known living descendants or relatives with the same Y-DNA?

    Is it possible to check if King Olaf of Norway was indeed N1c?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-06-2018 at 01:26 PM.

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    Then the trees we used differ from each other; it's difficult since there are many branches;
    this is the line that I used for Massalsky's ancestry.

    Yaroslav the Wise
    Sviatoslav II of Kiev
    Oleg I of Chernigov
    Vsevolod II of Kiev
    Sviatoslav III of Kiev
    Vsevolod IV of Kiev
    Mikhail of Chernigov, father of (amongst others):
    a) Mstislav of Karachev (from which N1c Massalsky stem)
    b) Yuri of Torusa (from which R1a Obolensky stem).

    these are other Mstislav and Yuri than the sons of Vladimir Monomakh.
    it is not 100% certain whether this Mikhail was Yuri and Mstislav's (lawful) father though.

    In anycase, some of the lines that claim to be Rurikid either contain a non-paternal event or have a false tree.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 09-06-2018 at 02:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Well Vsevolod and Izyaslav were both supposed to be sons of Yaroslav I and Ingegerd.

    One of them was N1c the other one was I2a, based on DNA testing of all of their direct paternal descendants.

    Vsevolod (N1c) was born shortly after King Olaf II left Russia (where he had spent one year) back to Norway.

    And there is a story about a romance between Olaf and Ingegerd. No similar stories surrounding the I2a line.
    But you see, the point is that the only reliable test would be that of ancient bones, not that of the recorded descendants. If you have hundreds of years and large number of generations separating the actually tested descendants from their recorded ancestors, you have no guarantee that everything in between was genuinely "legitimate". And "stories" are not good enough. Frankly I would be extremely surprised if Yaroslav were I2a. Unless you imagine a story that Volodymyr was born not of Svyatoslav but that some other gentleman who had a go at his mother, or even that Olga had a tryst with some local chap while Igor was on vacation. Or..or… or... There's just no certainty. What goes for Ingigerd (in my opinion highly unlikely) can go for anybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yaroslav the Wise had sons Vsevolod and Izyaslav born by Ingegerd of Sweden. All modern Rurikids whose DNA was tested are descended from them (except for Rurikids with R1a who turned out to be false Rurikids with genealogy modified in the 16th century).

    Descendants of Vsevolod are N1c and descendants of Izyaslav are I2a.
    Even assuming the lines are unquestionable, you'd have to do a lot more to place the NPE in the 11th century. How many people were tested and where do the supposed descendants of Vsevolod last have common assumed patrilineal ancestors and descendants of Izyaslav last have common assumed patrilineal ancestors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    But you see, the point is that the only reliable test would be that of ancient bones, not that of the recorded descendants. If you have hundreds of years and large number of generations separating the actually tested descendants from their recorded ancestors, you have no guarantee that everything in between was genuinely "legitimate". And "stories" are not good enough. Frankly I would be extremely surprised if Yaroslav were I2a. Unless you imagine a story that Volodymyr was born not of Svyatoslav but that some other gentleman who had a go at his mother, or even that Olga had a tryst with some local chap while Igor was on vacation. Or..or… or... There's just no certainty. What goes for Ingigerd (in my opinion highly unlikely) can go for anybody.
    If we assume that NPE or many NPEs happened later, we should have many different Y-DNA lineages instead of just two.

    All of tested descendants of Izyaslav are I2a and the same subclade, they do not belong to several different haplogroups.

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