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Thread: Iberian Ancient DNA on the works

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    I did not know that you are also an expert linguist. What is your opinion about the origin of Basque?
    I do not need to be an expert to know there are no certainties on the origin of the old iberian language, its connections to basque, nor when it arrived to the peninsula.
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  3. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    Forget the Basques, what do you think about the Aquitanians, Tartessians and Iberians? Do you have any opinion that shows why they did not abandon their languages? All of them (according to Olalde and Reich) were mostly R1b P312 like you and me.
    What ancient y-dna do we have from those peoples? None that I know of. John Koch, as I recall, believes the language of Tartessos was Celtic.

    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    Do you know Kurts ?, he is the anthropologist who best knows the Yamnaya culture and said that there were three types- Dolichocephaly and gracile skeletons of the Eastern Mediterranean type, as it could not be otherwise because of its mixture with Cucuteni and with southern peoples of the Caucasus (CHG). The thing about collective graves is simply a joke as we have seen before.
    Some scholars now believe brachycephaly among some of the Kurgan BB people (it wasn't universal) was produced by the practice of cradle boarding.

    "The thing about collective graves" is an absolutely valid distinction. You attempt to obfuscate by lumping all burials that contain more than one skeleton into the collective category, when that is clearly not the case. Communal Neolithic collective burials, usually in megalithic tombs, were quite distinct from steppe-style single graves into which additional bodies might be inserted later at various points in the mound (but not into a central chamber as in the Neolithic case). I've seen you call the Boscombe Bowmen burial "collective", but that is true only in that more than one skeleton was recovered from it. Read the details. It clearly was not a Neolithic-style, communal, collective grave. Instead, it appears to have begun as a typical Kurgan BB single grave into which other bodies were inserted later. It lacked the Neolithic tomb chamber, and was a mound-covered pit burial to begin with.
     


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  5. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    Perhaps you can tell us what language (or languages) were spoken in Western Europe in the Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age
    From the Bronze Age onwards we can say, with a high degree of confidence, that Indo European languages were being spoken in Western Europe.

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  7. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    To be fair I've had similar arguments with people from many different countries but the theme is always the same.
    Well, there are indeed communities that survived until modern times more genetically isolated than others. It is not my case but I see no point in denying that fact. I'd even say that these are the most interesting people for anybody trying to get a picture of the genetic map of the world. I mean, I assume there is a reason why "basque" appears as a relevant category in lots of admixture algorithms.
    Do you have a question or topic about genetics in Spain and/or prefer to use Spanish language? Visit the new subforum!

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  9. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Well, there are indeed communities that survived until modern times more genetically isolated than others. It is not my case but I see no point in denying that fact. I'd even say that these are the most interesting people for anybody trying to get a picture of the genetic map of the world. I mean, I assume there is a reason why "basque" appears as a relevant category in lots of admixture algorithms.
    Basques were thought relevant because of the old, cobwebbed, erroneous, 19th century idea that, because their language is not Indo-European, the Basques must be some kind of Paleolithic relic population. Before ancient dna testing became practical, scientists thought that by studying the Basques we could get an idea what the aboriginal population of Europe was like. That was the thinking back in early 2006 when I ordered my first 37-marker y-dna STR test from FTDNA.

    Now we know better, and the Basques have lost much of their antique luster.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-06-2018 at 02:52 PM.
     


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  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I do not need to be an expert to know there are no certainties on the origin of the old iberian language, its connections to basque, nor when it arrived to the peninsula.
    Nor are there any certainties regarding the origin of the Indo-European and yet you seem to have it very clear. Some think that it originated in the steppes, others in Anatolia, others in the north of India ...And everyone wants to be right

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    Nor are there any certainties regarding the origin of the Indo-European and yet you seem to have it very clear. Some think that it originated in the steppes, others in Anatolia, others in the north of India ...And everyone wants to be right
    The only way we'd be absolutely sure is if someone found an inscription with some 6000 years, but that is not going to happen. Lets be honest, there are only two competing theories about the origins of the PIE language at the moment, but that is not what is being discussed in this topic anyway
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  14. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    What ancient y-dna do we have from those peoples? None that I know of. John Koch, as I recall, believes the language of Tartessos was Celtic.



    Some scholars now believe brachycephaly among some of the Kurgan BB people (it wasn't universal) was produced by the practice of cradle boarding.

    "The thing about collective graves" is an absolutely valid distinction. You attempt to obfuscate by lumping all burials that contain more than one skeleton into the collective category, when that is clearly not the case. Communal Neolithic collective burials, usually in megalithic tombs, were quite distinct from steppe-style single graves into which additional bodies might be inserted later at various points in the mound (but not into a central chamber as in the Neolithic case). I've seen you call the Boscombe Bowmen burial "collective", but that is true only in that more than one skeleton was recovered from it. Read the details. It clearly was not a Neolithic-style, communal, collective grave. Instead, it appears to have begun as a typical Kurgan BB single grave into which other bodies were inserted later. It lacked the Neolithic tomb chamber, and was a mound-covered pit burial to begin with.
    Tartessian celtic? I did not know that the Celts were 6,000 years old.

    How can you pretend that the Yamnaya culture brought brachycephaly to Europe if they were dolichocephalic. It is incredible, and yet you consider it one of the distinctive signs with respect to Iberian BBs when I have already told you that brachycephaly is documented in the Alps and Western Europe since the Neolithic (also in Spain).

    Remember that the higher the greater the dolichocephaly, it is one of the sacred rules of anthropology.

    At this point in the debate I no longer know what you think is a collective burial. Obviously an individual burial is one in which only an individual is buried.

    1- In Iberia there are hundreds of individual Pre-BB tombs from the Neolithic, that means that it is not not an exclusive custom of the Yamnaya culture. There are also individual burials in Remedello and other Italian Chalcolithic cultures.

    2- In the rest of Europe there are hundreds of collective tombs, both the Neolithic and Chalcolithic (Pre and BB burials). I'm not going to bore everyone by sending a lot of examples that I previously sent from collective graves in other European BB regions.

    For your theory to be true, it is not necessary for you to make that distinction between Iberia and the rest of Europe.

  15. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    Nor are there any certainties regarding the origin of the Indo-European and yet you seem to have it very clear. Some think that it originated in the steppes, others in Anatolia, others in the north of India ...And everyone wants to be right
    Everyone wants to be right, but obviously not everyone is. The consensus among historical linguists is that Proto-Indo-European originated on the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the mid to late 5th millennium BC. The evidence for that is ponderous.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  17. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    The only way we'd be absolutely sure is if someone found an inscription with some 6000 years, but that is not going to happen. Lets be honest, there are only two competing theories about the origins of the PIE language at the moment, but that is not what is being discussed in this topic anyway
    Then I suppose you do not know exactly where the Basque Iberian Tartessian and the Aquitanian was born.

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