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Thread: Iberian Ancient DNA on the works

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Why would you even mention a sample like that?

    If R1b-M269 was present in Iberia during the Neolithic, you all wouldn't have to grasp at contaminated and/or inferior samples, like that one and the infamous ATP3.

    If it was there before 2500 BC, it would have been found by now.

    Because it seems to me a good example of the difficulties that geneticists encounter in determining the genetic components of ancient remains.

    We have already discussed a lot about ATP3, it is not worth continuing to do it because we will never agree.

    I do not think so, there are still many interesting sites to study especially in the Early Chalcolithic (3,200-2,600 BC). I'm only concerned about the slowness of the investigations

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    This is from Harrison and Heyd (2007), The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 192:



    The Sion samples successfully tested by Olalde et al came from after the destruction horizon and represent the eastern newcomers, with steppe dna. Here they are, from the Olalde et al Supplementary Information, Tables 2 and 4:

    I5755/BB_01_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: K2b1a

    I5757/BB_18_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-L151 mtDNA: H3af

    I5759/BB_23_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE mtDNA: U2e1c1

    Those skeletons all came from monument MXI, which was built after the destruction horizon from fragments of broken stelae.

    Or as we think"- Heyd does not have any proof to affirm what he is affirming, he only thinks that instead of being a change in the beginning of Bell Beaker culture this occurred in the middle of the development of that culture in Sion. It is a desperate attempt to fit the migrants from the east into the central European Bell beakers. However

    Desideri et al are absolutely clear- "The Czech Corded Ware and Bell Beaker assemblages, by contrast, are more heterogeneous. The Swiss sites are also grouped, with the exception of the Early Bronze Age (BAvs) which is associated with the Hungarian Bell Beaker (B. The other Hungarian assemblages are distinguished from the regional Bell Beaker and are somewhat isolated. The second group is formed by the set of Swiss samples and by the majority of later Iberian and French groups (FN/BBpe, BAcu, BBdiv, FNla).

    “The late Iberian and French assemblages, as well as the Swiss groups, present a uniform concentration. The Final Neolithic seems to be more variable. It should be noted that while the Hungarian non-Bell Beaker assemblages are close to their Czech congenerics, the Hungarian Bell Beaker is clearly distinguished and seems much closer to its western contemporaries.

    The configuration of Bohemian populations corresponds perfectly to the view of the end of the Neolithic in eastern Europe: with populations from the Final Neolithic (Corded Ware culture) intermediate between the Bell Beaker and the Early Bronze Age (Unetice culture), telling elements of the involvement of the Corded Ware in the appearance of successive periods, which in contrast seem to evolve independently of one another.

    So, we have seen that the Swiss sites do not mix with the eastern domain, but fit well with the southern domain.

    In effect, the archaeological data have often shown southern influences in the western Swiss Bell Beaker, in particular with respect to funerary practices and domestic structures. The choice of burying the deceased in collective graves is incontestably attached to the cultural sphere of the western domain.

    We have seen that a moderate external population contribution present in the Final Neolithic was increased during the Bell Beaker in western Switzerland. Today, we can clarify, based on the analysis of nonmetric dental variability, that these were mainly people coming from the Mediterranean domain, which is in agreement with the archaeological data from the 3rd millennium BC.

    Faced with this devastating data, Heyd thinks that these changes occurred in Sion in the middle BB phase.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by GASKA View Post
    P312 can not be found in Neolithic Sion or any Neolithic region of Europe simply because it is a Chalcolithic haplogroup formed probably around 2.800 BC. Therefore, it is not what we are looking for
    P312 wasn't a miracle birth : ))))

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  5. #104
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    I have seen that other Spaniards have made reference in this forum to this site of Humanejos (Parla, Madrid)- 2.000 estructures, 100 tombs, 160 skeletons, Pre-BB and BB Chalcolitic (3.000-2.000 BC). Most of the recovered samples are in Harvard, I suppose that Olalde has more work and it is an interesting deposit because it can check "in situ", WHEN that famous genetic substitution occurred (if it was produced). The stratigraphic continuity of the site does not show signs of violence and individual and family (collective) burials alternate. More than 200 ceramic pieces (56 BB vessels), copper tanged daggers, axes, awls, etc. For all of us who like the BB culture, it is a true paradise. The recovered pieces are so abundant that they are going to open a museum in the village dedicated only to BB culture.

    Dama de oro.jpg

    Especially interesting is this woman (Golden Lady) buried in an individual grave with remains of her clothing, three buttons V-perforated, 15 gold plates around the neck and an ivory beads necklace. His DNA is also at Harvard. The antiquity of the site can bring many surprises.

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     palamede (11-29-2018),  Ruderico (11-29-2018),  Shadogowah (11-29-2018)

  7. #105
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    Do you know what date is the Dama de Oro estimated to be from?
    G25 Hidden Content and Hidden Content distances
    Hidden Content
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    DEIBABOR
    IGO
    DEIBOBOR
    VISSAIEIGO
    BOR

  8. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Do you know what date is the Dama de Oro estimated to be from?
    They are doing C14 tests in Groningen.

    Maybe you can help us, we are looking for references of a spectacular gold wristguard found in a Portuguese site years ago. Spanish archaeologists mention it on many occasions but we are not able to find anything. Maybe you know something.

  9. #107
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    Any idea on the region or time period? Otherwise it's like finding a needle in a haystack
    G25 Hidden Content and Hidden Content distances
    Hidden Content
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    DEIBABOR
    IGO
    DEIBOBOR
    VISSAIEIGO
    BOR

  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Any idea on the region or time period? Otherwise it's like finding a needle in a haystack
    Creo que es Vilanova de Cerveira (cerca de Viana)

    We do not find studies or publications of the site, it may be that the discovery is very old and has not been published.

  11. #109
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    Obviously Viana from Portugal not Viana from Galicia. I think it's Viana do Castelo.

  12. #110
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    Yes, it's on the banks of the Minho river. If I find something I'll send it to you
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    DEIBABOR
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